My son is quickly coming up to senior year course selection. He is currently looking at a variety of selective and highly selective schools for science (probably chemistry if he goes that route?) or engineering (maybe mechanical or civil?). He took HS honors biology in 8th grade, honors chemistry in 9th, AP chemistry and honors physics in 10th grade and is currently taking AP Physics-C Mechanics. He will have the option of taking either 1. AP Bio 2. AP Physics-C E&M, 3. one semester of organic chemistry and one semester of biochemistry or 4. AP Enivironmental Science. He might be able to take 2 of these potentially, but I think that might be difficult because he might need to double up on social sciences instead because of graduation requirements he still needs. Does he need the biology to be sufficiently competitive since the last biology he took was in middle school (I’ve heard of some schools wanting bio, chem and physics)? Any advice? My sense is that he’s most interested in the chemistry options right now.
That is certainly what I’d recommended in this situation. Will the 8th grade biology appear on his HS transcript?
I vote for AB Bio.
One doesn’t need or typically even have access to Org Chem in HS. APES is fine even if seen softer but he doesn’t have Bio. Physics C is another nice to have. But not needed.
Good luck.
Take what he wants, although I would personally stay clear of HS-level orgo or biochem.
It’s moot if the MS course appears on the HS transcript. If it doesn’t, as a data point of one, I didn’t have bio in HS - or MS for that matter - and I went to one of those universities that suggest bio/chem/physics. But if he wants to avoid thinking “if only I took AP Bio, I wouldn’t have been rejected,” take bio.
@skieurope and @Momofthree24 His HS Hon Bio from 8th grade and the grade in that course will definitely appear on his HS transcript. @skieurope I agree with you in general about the HS level organic/biochem but I do respect the teachers that teach these courses at his (large public) school. I think the main usefulness of those courses might be to help him trying to figure out if he wants to do chemistry vs engineering (and that in turn might help narrow the college list a bit!).
Has he considered Chemical Engineering?
I’ve suggested that but so far he hasn’t seemed interested (not sure why!).
Might he consider a summer program - like STEP at Purdue, Operation Catapult at Rose Hulman or there are others - to help validate if engineering is an interest? My son’s experience helped him validate the major.
Of course , one can start in engineering and transfer out, in most cases easier than the other way - or there are some LACs with engineering which might have easier ability to move.
Yes, he is thinking about some of those types of programs for this summer (and I’ve been trying to get him to look at LACs with engineering too or at least schools where students have a little more time to declare a major in the engineering school). He hasn’t done robotics in HS like some engineering-interested students have done so I am not sure if he really knows what it involves at this point. He did take a 1-semester engineering design course his freshman year, but my sense is it was pretty low level. His summers have always been complicated because they are so short (only 8 weeks) and he has also been doing Scout camp and XC team camp and music activities over the summers too. Hopefully he’ll be able to fit something like one of those engineering camps in this summer–I think it would really help!
My son didn’t have robotics or anything like that. His hobby was going to airports and taking pictures of airplanes taking off. Planes Spotting - he had an instagram with thousands of images - every city we went to, we had to go planespotting.
He switched his desired major in HS four times -
- Astro Physics
- Professional Pilot
- Atmospheric Sciences
- MechE
He attended STEP and that cemented it. It’s competitive so not an easy admit (he was turned down but got a better ACT and then they let him in) but there will be other programs too - if one doesn’t work.
I don’t think you need to do robotics in HS - nor design or other things.
These kids are 17 - things change - and you can always go the engineering route and then leave it - as apparently half of engineering majors do nationally.
Not sure he’ll truly know from HS - and I think that’s fine.
So if he can go - great. And if he can’t - that will be ok too.
And then you have schools that have first year engineering - so you go in as an engineer, but you don’t have to claim ChemE on day one - so you have that too.
Honestly, it’s nerve wracking but not unusual. He’ll be fine.
If he is interested in engineering and the bio from 8th grade is on his HS transcript then he should finish the AP physics C since it will be the most helpful for him in college.
That would have been my suggestion. The fact that he isn’t clamoring to do that tells me that 1. maybe he isn’t as set on engineering as he claims and/or 2. he wants an “easier” senior year! Chemistry comes pretty easily to him whereas he has to work really hard to perform at the same level in physics.
If H bio is on his transcript and the grade is part of his gpa, he has covered the bio, chem, and physics requirement.
A few things to consider-
Both chemistry and chem e majors typically have at least one required biology selective course. As such AP bio senior year could be a good refresher since bio was in 8th grade.
E&M was the hardest class my took in HS but it was a semester long class at her school, not a year long. She found it helpful as an engineering student to have had that exposure but she couldn’t use the AP credit because her school integrated E&M with optics and other topics. If your child is leaning towards engineering, that would be my recommendation.
My chem e daughter did take o chem in HS. It was nothing like college o chem but another good introduction. If your child is leaning towards pure chemistry and feels confident that they’ve retained their bio knowledge, I’d let them run with the o chem/biochem option that they seem to be leaning towards.
I don’t see a benefit to option 4.
In terms of deciding direction, I second an engineering summer program. My D also did STEP at Purdue and interned there after her freshman year of college. I’m happy to answer questions about the program via PM.
Another good exercise is looking at the four year plan of study for schools on the list and seeing what classes seem more appealing. Also look at career destinations.
There are also plenty of schools where students don’t need to declare their major until sophomore year and or make transferring major straight forward. I’m thinking schools like Cornell and Notre Dame. It’s also typically easier to transfer out of engineering rather than in at schools who do admit by major.
RPI has a good side by side analysis of the course differences: Chemistry or Chemical Engineering? | Chemistry and Chemical Biology
The other thing - with Senior year in general - not course selection - depending on how many schools the student plans to apply to - it can get very stressful.
So if the student doesn’t want the hardest schedule (it’s their choice, of course), I think it’s ok.
There’s a lot more going on than school and fun - with possible test prep, and especially college apps, unless he’s just applying to a few.
The thing with engineering - there’s soooooo many great names - so he’s going to find a great home no matter what.
Thanks to everyone for your helpful replies. My S27’s search is complicated by the fact that he is likely to be a high level D3 recruited athlete, so unless he wants to give that up and compete on a club team at a big school (like Purdue) or unless he improves a lot this season and is able to move up to D1, that limits things significantly. I do think he’s developing a good list of some more likely schools (some LACs without engineering and some other schools with engineering programs) as well as a few academic reaches that he might have a shot at, particularly at schools where the coach has some admissions pull. He’ll have to decide ultimately whether to do ED somewhere to get that extra push. He had a strong ACT score recently (much better math/science than his sophomore SAT indicated), so that should help some, but at some of those schools I think he’ll need all the help he can get. A summer engineering program might help with that too.
There will still be schools - and the where you go for ChemE likely doesn’t matter as much as you think.
Rose Hulman shows 100% reporting - so everyone is accounted for - 92% placed at $84K. U Michigan, with all the love and prestige, less.
And you’ll find in engineering - once you have ABET - it’s not going to be that different - like my son (MechE) was hired with Michigan and W MIchigan - they all make the same….so he’ll have options but will have to look maybe at D3 schools with engineering. I don’t know how many that is but ABET says there’s 192 accredited in the US. Budget and other things will come into play with that.
Chemistry will not pay as well. UNC only shows a 24% knowledge rate so is missing 3/4 which we won’t know but I’d argue, if not employed, not submitting - but they show a $46.6K average but $31K median. Many will argue that’s because some kids are doing low pay work in advance of med school apps and it may be. But that is the data.
RPI doesn’t show % collected but Chem E was $81K, Chemistry $63K.
School of Mines (Colorado) shows $81K with 112 grads in ChemE and $71K for Chemistry with 9 grads.
Purdue shows 16 Chem grads with a $57K salary and 78 ChemE grads at $81K.
So outcomes will be consistent I think - and in most cases, ChemE will be on a higher salary (and likely a higher opportunity) level.
So I’d find the right school - for sports and all that - vs. necessarily the biggest name.
Right now I don’t think he is thinking ChemE at all (though I think he should maybe given his interests and what you’ve stated above)! I think if he goes engineering he needs a school where he can learn about the different options (or a good summer program beforehand that will help him think through those). I’m not a big fan of schools that require declaring a specific engineering major when you apply. Unfortunately he is looking at some reach schools right now that require that.
I do suspect (as you imply) a lot of those Chem numbers might be affected by people going to PhD and medical school type programs that take a while right after college (and in my experience, it usually is the weaker chemistry majors that go directly into the job market). If he goes the chemistry route, I don’t see him in the pre-med track based on his current stated interests.
AP Bio
Regarding the last sentence, he should be sure not to be deficient in other areas for both high school graduation and college expectations for admission. Even if the high school only requires two years of history and social studies to graduate, many more selective colleges prefer to see three or four years.
It looks like he has the basics (biology, chemistry, and physics) done, so choosing advanced science courses may need to consider the following aims:
- College admission competition: the hardest to consider, since different colleges vary in expectations and competitiveness, and it can also depend on context of what the high school offers and what other applicants from the high school have. If there is question about having had high school biology back in middle school, then AP biology would cover that potential issue.
- Gaining advanced placement and/or subject credit in college: should look at AP credit listings and course requirements for the majors in question at various colleges, but AP biology is probably better accepted than AP physics C E&M or AP environmental science.
- Preview of the subject that will be taken in college: could apply to any of the options, although less likely with AP environmental science.
- Determination of interest in the subject: the high school organic chemistry and biochemistry course could help determine how interested he is in chemistry as a major. AP environmental science may be helpful in determining interest in that subject or related subjects (e.g. chemistry with an environmental emphasis or environmental engineering).