^I obviously need to reread Part 3, I really don’t remember Camila’s heirs being servants. Yuck! Yes clearly some elements of Malala in her, but without any of her strength. Too bad.
Sean Probst clearly is what Elon Musk would like to be. I’m not seeing Jeff Bezos.
“The Purpose” reminded me of those secret social scientist that were secretly manipulating history to essentionally shorten the Dark Ages in Asimov’s Foundation Trilogy. It didn’t feel nefarious to me. Though perhaps anything non-democratic really is nefarious on some level? I’ve always thought enlightened despotism is the best system of government, but very few despots remained enlightened for long.
Here’s the short version to save you a 300 page re-read : The Camites are nurses, caregivers and attendants. (This is supposedly by choice–because everyone of the same race has identical skills and desires, right? Ugh.) Camites have only first names, like Remembrance and Hope. They are seen as “weak and childlike” (p. 632). At one point, when Memmie boldly expresses an opinion, Ariane spends a few moments “recovering from her shock at being spoken to this way by a Camite” (p. 749). The culture in Part 3 made me uncomfortable–a sugar-coated reprise of the racial prejudice/enslavement found on Old Earth.
I saw similar prejudice in the way Bard, the Neoander, was viewed. There is a scene where the characters are in a bar with naked dancers, watching them casually – except for Bard, who knows he can’t look at “their” women:
Hmmm…With the above comments, I seem to have crossed into another discussion question:
I think it’s deliberate social commentary, with Stephenson essentially saying that the more things change, the more they stay the same. No matter how much we perfect our DNA or advance our technology, we will still stereotype and compartmentalize others for the most primitive of reasons: race.
Too deliberate to be anything but deliberate. Not only in terms of stereotyping and compartmentalizing but in terms of boundaries and war. It can be viewed as a cautionary tale rather than prediction, if you want. (Though unrest seems to mark our history from earliest times - it would be as much of a marked change to live in harmony as to take on the genetic changes of the Pingers.)
And re “too deliberate to be anything but deliberate,” how about the two warring factions–the Red and the Blue? Contemporary battle camps, politically speaking.
I think it’s deliberate and sad. It’s not the future I’d imagined for them despite Aida’s curse/prediction. Moira obviously should have tried harder to eradicate the us and them tendencies of humans!
That said, I do think it’s likely pretty deeply ingrained for us to make connections in small groups. There is some thought among evolutionary biologists that religion developed to help keep group cohesiveness - so the lack of any real future religion also surprises me.
^ Yes, and I was also surprised that what little religion they did have – spiritual centers and such – were created and run by Julians. Since we’re in stereotyping mode, I would have to say that is not the race to which I would have attributed a deeply spiritual mindset. (Unless…could it be a subtle reference to the fact that spearheading a religion is often a route to power?)
In what way do you think the Seven Eves amounted to a religion, ignatius? It’s been over a month since I finished the book, and I’ve forgotten a lot of details already.
I would say the religion aspect of the Seven Eves falls into the cult subcategory, as in “a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure.” Each Eve even has a special Feast day, just like the saints.
Others hold an opposing view, i.e, Stephenson’s “racism” is deliberate social commentary on the fact that humans will always find a way to create “us” and “them.” Which view resonates more with you?
Definitely deliberate on Stephenson’s part and saddening.
How much have we humans evolved socially over the past 5000 years? If there were no us and them, we’d be a peaceful planet. I’d like to believe that if the earth’s surface was wiped out, and we witnessed it, we’d elect to change or modify our behavior and be a more cooperative group.
I also agree about the Eve’s forming a basis for a religion of sorts. That the citizens of the future replayed and knew by heart actions of their ancestors–the seven gospels of the Eve’s–was just…icky, imo!
cartera45, thanks for the link. I was glad to see the full-size illustrations, as they don’t display well at all on my kindle. I especially like the drawing of the Cradle.
cartera: Thanks for the link (post #151). In particular, the habitat ring caught my eye. I’ve decided - after due consideration - that I’m Moiran - or maybe just want to be. I like the idea of becoming ignatius two or three or four. I’m definitely married to an Ivyn so our children are mixed. It works: we fit well in either the Memphis, Rio, or Greenwich part of the Habitat Ring.
We have covered all the discussion questions and then some, so feel free to begin thinking about our October selection. Of course, our current discussion can continue as long as desired.
Re Seveneves, although I preferred Parts 1 and 2, I actually ended up reflecting a lot more on Part 3. I guess I prefer sociology and anthropology to physics and technology.
One question about the Camites. They appear to be androgynous:
I assume Camila “special ordered” this feature from Moira. What do you think is the evolutionary or social benefit?
Before we go on to thinking about what next - I am curious about what others thought of the ending. Various reviews say that Stephenson seems to have problems with endings, or at least feels no need to end a book where most authors do. So what do you think ending in what really seemed to be the middle of the action accomplished? While I don’t think there will be a sequel per se, I think it did emphasize that this is only the beginning of the story of humanity. Does any one think that the addition of the Pingers and Diggers into the equation will make any difference ultimately to Red/Blue relations? Did dividing the world into Red/Blue seem too much like a video game or laser tag? Or was that also a deliberate choice?
I’d forgotten about the androgynous Camites. I think one benefit is that this group might understand male/female better if they can experience both. It should make them more empathetic to differences. Also Camilla was most worried about excessive aggression, especially in the confined quarters of space, I think she may have seen androgeny as a way of creating a man who could survive in space better. (Earlier in the book Stephenson talks about how women tend to live longer in space because they take fewer risks, get less restless and bond with each other more than males.)
I like the idea of a garment consisting entirely of cargo pockets by the way.
Ending? There was an ending? I felt like the book just sort of stopped–but at that point, to be honest, I was ready for it to stop, so I was okay with that. Neal Stephenson said:
: The Camites are nurses, caregivers and attendants. (This is supposedly by choice–because everyone of the same race has identical skills and desires, right? Ugh.) Camites have only first names, like Remembrance and Hope. They are seen as “weak and childlike” (p. 632). At one point, when Memmie boldly expresses an opinion, Ariane spends a few moments “recovering from her shock at being spoken to this way by a Camite” (p. 749). The culture in Part 3 made me uncomfortable–a sugar-coated reprise of the racial prejudice/enslavement found on Old Earth.
Not only in terms of stereotyping and compartmentalizing but in terms of boundaries and war. It can be viewed as a cautionary tale rather than prediction, if you want. (Though unrest seems to mark our history from earliest times - it would be as much of a marked change to live in harmony as to take on the genetic changes of the Pingers.)
