Shameful! Leniency for U.S. soldiers who deliberately murdered an innocent Iraqui

<p>The change-tossing cab driver was not a New Yorker. We were in liberal San Francisco. Cranky New Yorker service worker? This one showed me what he was made of. I draw a line between crankiness and pure hatred for rest of world. </p>

<p>Coincidence? Fresh in the news is that teacher who gave crossword puzzle assignment to his students and when they connected the letters, they found words like “hate, destroy America, kill Jews”. This teacher’s other teaching job was at an Islamic school. Wonder what they are teaching there ?</p>

<p>Go ahead and make excuses for them. Americans are accepting people. Some in the third world take that to be a weakness.</p>

<p>I’ll respond in a few hours. I ask that noone posts on the thread so I finish his recallibration. Golani you may want to respond to all 5 of my points and the other part of #1 that you attempted to answer. America has been a lone veto against several U.N. Security Council votes. Our aid has been immense. Blind support is very apt.</p>

<p>Just to quote Arafat on the Jews - “We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem…All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America…We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem…You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State…I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews.”
Yasser Arafat - Palestinian ‘President’, Jan. 30, 1996, Private speech to Arab leaders - “The Impending Total Collapse of Israel”, Stockholm, Sweden</p>

<p>Also, looks like misterflyer1997 has been reading terrorist morale booster and hate flyers from the underground press before the ink was barely dried.</p>

<p>Where do people like that come from? The Hate America crowd speaks!</p>

<p>One more thing, misterflyer1997, plundering of oil ? It wasnt that long ago gasline costed over $3 /gallon. That’s AFTER we invaded Iraq. Where was the oil we supposed to have plundered?</p>

<p>Hanna:</p>

<p>You’re wasting your time. Yourworld is not intellectually capable of discerning the difference between the behavior of a single member of a minority and ALL of that minority group. His/her kind are legion. We cannot reason with them. Our only option is to try to control them by legal means until, eventually, they overcome the law (they always do, you know).</p>

<p>Golani:</p>

<p>You know, I bided my time on this. I really did. I let you use the name “Golani” without saying anything in the off chance that you might actually have served in that storied brigade. I am now 99% certain that you did not.</p>

<p>You see, I actually wore the brown beret. I’m betting you never did. But I’ll give you a chance. If you’ll give me the name of your CO and your years of service, I’ll send an e-mail to my old CO and know within 24 hours. Just send me a message. Otherwise, I’ll know you for what you are.</p>

<p>I agree with most of your points except for the way you reference Israel. We are generally in agreement. However, you see that as an excuse to kill people and I view those American actions as a response to that hatred. As for Israel, it would take me way to long to try to explain what happened so I will keep int short and concise and because of that will miss addressing many things.</p>

<p>First lets define some terms. Palestine is a geographic term not a country. It encompasses modern day Israel and Jordan. It can be said that 2/3 of the geographic region Palestine is actually Jordan, the other third is Israel. I will refer to Palestine when I am talking about the time period from when Jews were first kicked out of their country thousands of years ago to 1948.</p>

<p>Jews have always lived in Palestine. Just check out the census figures from when they began to be recorded. The Jewish population often fluctuated because of attacks on them, the earliest earliest being Babylonians, assyrians etc and the latests being Arabs, Turks and Muslims-since Islams formation as a religion. The Jews lived in the following cities: Jerusalem, Hebron, Haifa, Shchem(Nablus), Safed, very small amount in Jaffa. These are some of the oldest cities in the country. Granted, the population of Jews then was not extremely high and other populations were higher in Palestine. Jewish immigration started in mid 1800’s are a religious response and more importantly as a response to anti-semitism. That is anti-semitism in Czarist Russia and Eastern Europe. Ironically, in western Europe which emancipated Jews, the Jews there were not so interested in their own homeland as much as those in Eastern Europe. So there goes the old saying, Zionism was about Americans Jews giving money to the British Jews so that Polish Jews could move to Palestine. Nevertheless, Jewish immigration continued into those regions. The region from the Jordan river to the Med. Sea, which is modern day Israel was essentially a swamp land owned by Arab landlords living in Syria. The people who lived on that land were largely nomadic and Palestine had no viable infrastructure and in reality no infrastructure at all. Mark Twain in 1867 wrote while visiting Palestine. " Stirring scences…occur in the valley of Jezreel no more. There is not a solitar village throught its whole extent-not for 30 miles in either direction. There are 2 or 3 small clusters of Beduin tents, but not a single permanent habitation. One may ride 10 miles hereabouts and not see 10 human beings…Come to Galilee for that…these unpeopled deserts, these rusty mounds of barrenness, that never, never, never, do shake the glare from their harsh outlines, and fade and faint into vague perspective; that melancholy ruin of Capernaum: this stupid village of Tiberias, slumbering under its 6 funeral palms…We reached Tabor safelt…We never saw a human being on the whole route. Nazareth is forlorn…Jericho the accursed lies in a moldering ruin today, even as Joshua’s miracle left it more than three thousand years ago; Bethlehem and Bthany, in their poverty and their humilation have nothing about them now to remind one that once knew the high honor of the Saviors presence…"</p>

<p>In 1857 British communique from their consul in Jerusalem said “the country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore its greatest need is that of a body of population” </p>

<p>The Arab population in Palestine was simply decreasing. If anyone asks I will point them to more data and repors by demographers that show that.Jews started to settle and arive in larger and larger numbers. Rishon L’Zion (first zion) was the first settlement and really the first “city” built, but in general since the movement to Israel was either very religious or very socialistic in nature most Jewish settlements were turned into seperate farming communities. As a result of Jewish settlement, Arab nomads and Arab tenet farmers started to find work. Their economy boomed. The Jews offered the Arabs alot of agricultural and medical help. There was alot of collaboration between individual villages in the Jordan, Jezreel, and Beka valleys. Whenever a large scale cooperation was proposed to Arab nationalist leaders it was turned down because of anti-semitism. Nevertheless, Arab avg life expectancy continued to rise and infant mortality continued to drop and Palestine continued to grow as a Jewish homeland. Moreover, Arab immigration to areas near Jews grew because of the economic expansion offered by the Jews. Palestine was one of the most profitable places for Arabs to live by the beginning of WW2 As this was going on the Arabs were also beginning to mobilize. With the start and end of WWI ( I understand, I skipped a huge chunk of history, just not that much time on my hands) Britain and France now controlled the Middle East and they promised to build countries. The Hussien-McMahon correspondance promised a country in Arabia-Basically Saudia Arabia, Qatar, Oman, UAE, and to an extent Iraq. Remember Palestine was a seperate geographic term for todays Jordan and Israel. Then a few years after the Hussein Mcmahon correspondence- the Balfour Decleration (1918) promises Palestine to the Jews. All of Palestine. In 1922, the promise is first broken as Transjordan is created. Most Jews do not really object to much because they understood how little connection they had to that part of Palestine. Interestingly enough, Jordan is considered a Palestinian country with about 80% of the country being Palestinian Arab, but at time in early 1900’s no one even talked of an indpendant Palestinian state. In fact, the “Palestinian” people did not even exist yet. Arab aspirations were to combine a big country-that woudl include Syria and all of Palestine. So Jews continued to build the country well into WWI and after WWI. During the first world war it is important to note that the Jews fought with the British and yes there was some small support from Arabs. (This would not extend into WWII, when the Arabs were categorically against the British. Arab leaders often visited Germany and Germen leadres visited them. Togetherthey collaborated on killing Jews as well as the rest of the allies). Also important to note that after the British recieved their mandate in Palestine, they continued Turkish policy of limiting land for Jews. Jews could only own a certain amount of land and the land they could own was almost all an arrible, swamp, and useless by mostly anybody’s standards except those of the Jews who built cities and farms in rocky hills and deserts. Jews consisteently tried to purchase land. They had to buy from Syrian landlords at very inflated prices. They often paid 5-8 times the worth of a piece of land. In fact 3/4 of the land bought by Jews were boug from huge landowners living in Syria and other countries rather than simple farmers in Palestine. David Ben Gurion, the 1st prime minister of Israel who was never part of Lehi or Stern, instructed Jews to not by land that belonged to local Arab farmers or those who worked on the land. From this point forward Palestine will refer to modern day Israel, and Transjordan to modern day Jordan even though togethey they make up the region of Palestine. Jew continued to build up their national home in Palestine. The first newspaper in Palestine ever was called the Palestinian Post. This was run by Jews. The first radiostation ever was called the Palestinian Voice. This was run by Jews. Note that term Palestinian referred to the region and thus arabs and Jews alike. You were either a Palestinian Arab or a Palestinian Jew. Golda Meir, a later prime minister of Israel and fundamental to the building of the country, had a passport that said “Palestinian” on it. The Jews built schools, government agencies economic boards essentially the works. In the 1930’s huge Arab riots broke out. Many Jews were murdered. This all started when in 1929, in Hebron, sephardic Jews who had been in the city for a very long time. As long as the arabs, in fact, were massacred. 69 of them. The British refused to stop the riots of the 30’s and massacres and they were forced t oarm themselves. The Palmach, Hagganah were formed. They essentially worked to protect the Jews. Unfortunately certain rogue groups attacked innocent arabs. They were usually arrested, and condemned by Jewish leaders. After the riots and massacres died down, the British sent in the Peel Commission to investigate what happened and provide recommendations. The blame was squarely put on the Arab populations and British failure to act. This was in 1937. A Jewish state was already in de facto existance. Haifa was half Jewish, Jerusalem had Jewish majority, Tel Aviv grew and was largest city. </p>

<p>The Peel Commission wrote:</p>

<p>With every year that passes, the contrast between the intensely democratic and highly organized modern community and the old-fashioned Arab world around it grows sharper, and in nothin perhaps more markedly than on its cultural side. The literary output of the [Jewish] National Home is out of all proportion to its size. Hebrew translations have been published of the works of Aristotle, Descartes, Leibnitz, Fichte, Kant, Bergson, Einstein and other philospohers, and of Shakespeare, Goethe, Heine, Byron, Dickens, and the great Russian novelists, and many modern writers…The Hebrew Press has expanded to four daily and ten weekly papers…All in all, the cultural achievment of this little community of 400 000 people is on of the most remarkable features of the National Home"</p>

<p>This is just a testament to the cultural side of the country that the Jews were building. To seea more politcal side, just check out what Winston Churchill said.</p>

<p>After WWII there was enormous migration of Jews into Palestine. Many of them illegaly. Many also died because they were turned around right as Hitlers holocaust started. When the deaths of 6 million Jews became clear the Jewish state was hurried and in 1947 partition was declaed. Arab state and a Jewish State. At this moment Jews held a majority. The Jews accepted the partition. The arabs REJECTED the partion. So when time came for independane Israel took it, the arabs did not. Instead they went to war. They lost because Israel survived. Israel gained more land then it was granted in partition and Jordan took the Judea and Samaria, Egypt took Gaza, and Syria took Golan, those were all to be given to the Arab state orginally. Prior to independance terrorist orginizations that targeted British military instillations and prisons and Arab terrorists sprung up-the Irgun, Stern, and Lehi. They were condemned by the Jewish Agency and the Zionist Congress. The Hagana and Palmach meanwhile tried to disband these terrorist orginizations. Unfortunately they managed to blow up the King David hotel where Brits were stationed. No civillians were hurt. 3 Warnings were given- a newspaper ad, a radio announcment, and a call to the hotel.- IRA style. Jews were horrified by this act. And these groups represented a tiny minority. During the war of independance they were disbanded and formed into one israeli army. A few rogue units remained and they did some nasty stuff and killed innocent civillians during the war. They were condemned by the new Israeli government, disbanded, and kicked out. </p>

<p>This is as much as I can type right now. I have no idea what the focus of your anti-israel diatrabe will be, but I tried providing a little history. Also misterflyer1997 it would be fair if you admitted you are an Arab, as you mentioned before somewhere. I leave with this article about Palestinian Arabs.</p>

<p>If you are so sure that “Palestine, the country, goes back through most of recorded history”, I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine: </p>

<p>When was it founded and by whom?
What were its borders?
What was its capital?
What were its major cities?
What constituted the basis of its economy?
What was its form of government?
Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?
Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?
What was the language of the country of Palestine?
What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?
What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date.
Have they left any artifacts behind?
Do you know of a library where one could find a work of Palestinian literature produced before 1967?
And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?
You are lamenting the “low sinking” of “once proud” nation. Please tell me, when exactly was that “nation” proud and what was it so proud of? </p>

<p>And here is the least sarcastic question of all: If the people you mistakenly call “Palestinians” are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over — or thrown out of — the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, why did they never try to become independent until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat in the Six Day War? </p>

<p>I hope you avoid the temptation to trace the modern day “Palestinians” to the Biblical Philistines: substituting etymology for history won’t work here. </p>

<p>The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it. Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal with military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy. For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it “Palestinian people” and installed it in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to unconditionally accept back the “West Bank” and Gaza, respectively? </p>

<p>The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less claim to nationhood than that Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them. The so called “Palestinians” have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel, and in my book that is not sufficient to consider them a “nation” — or anything else except what they really are: a terrorist organization that will one day be dismantled. </p>

<p>In fact, there is only one way to achieve piece in the Middle East. Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side should, pay Israel reparations for the more than 50 years of devastation they have visited on it. The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and accepting Israel’s ancient sovereignty over Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. </p>

<p>That will mark the end of the Palestinian people. What are you saying again was its beginning? </p>

<p>You are absolutely correct in your understanding of the “Palestinians’” murderous motives. I am afraid however that you, along with 99% of the population of this planet have missed the beginning of WWIII (the enemy call it Jihad) quite a few years ago. The siege of the US embassy in Tehran in 1979, an event to which the latest Nobel Peace Prize winner had so miserably failed to respond, can be very well used as the day WWIII stepped out of the pages of the Koran and into the current events. I pray the United States and Israel lead the world to victory in this war. Come to think of it, there is no choice, be you a Christian, a Jew, or even, believe it or not, a Muslim.</p>

<p>I suggest people read both the Case for Peace and the Case for Israel, both by Alan Dershowitz for a basic history and defense of some unfair accusations against Israel and for some criticiszm of israel and how it should act for peace</p>

<p>I am only 17. I did not serve yet. I admire anyone who did. If you did I want to thank you for your service for us Jews. I did not know you were Israeli.</p>

<p>buy why such harsh words for me. What did I do to deserve them</p>

<p>Golani:</p>

<p>I am not Israeli. I did my masters and, later, my dissertation on aspects of military psychology in the Golani Brigade. As you know (actually, you probably don’t), Golani has several unique characteristics almost unknown in any other military unit in the world. In the mid-70s, I got caught up in a firefight while on patrol with a Sayaret unit. Since I had nothing better to do, I picked up a dropped rifle and started shooting. Based on that performance and a superficial wound, I was awarded a brown beret. I was and am very proud of that, though I would never claim to be a full member of Golani.</p>

<p>I have not earned that right.</p>

<p>I have a real problem with people who pretend to be members of one of the most respected military units in the world, today. It would be as if I made my handle “101st Airborne.” That’s something that has to be earned.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Really not-Golani? Despite copious Sumerian, Egyptian, Hittite, Ugaritic, and other records, I don’t know of anyone who has found any evidence for Jews in what would become the Roman province of Palestina prior to 1200 or so BCE (and even that is in dispute). You have evidence of Jewish presence before that time? Really? Could you share it? I know of a number of ANE scholars who are waiting with bated breath.</p>

<p>As for the Philistines, they are certainly the ones the Egyptians called “Peleset” and inhabited the coastal region (roughly Gaza) in the vicinity of Ashkelon. Their relationship to Arabs is tentative at best … not that it matters.</p>

<p>And everything west of the Jordan is SWAMPLAND!!! Funny. I was in the hills around Jerusalem fairly often, and I don’t remember seeing much except bone dry hills, a few stunted trees and plants, and lots of dirt.</p>

<p>everyone go away from this thread this is between me and golani will probably respond later notice that he ceded all my points though.</p>

<p>misterflyer:</p>

<p>So, you own this thread? May I see a receipt?</p>

<p>Tarhunt, I have numerous times made known that I am a 17 year old on this board. I had no intention of decieving when I made my “name” golani89. I made it out of admiration for the unit.</p>

<p>Those are the hills of Judea and Samria. Yes, I expressed myself incorrectly. Much of Palestine however was swamp land or non farmable land like those parts of Jerusalem.</p>

<p>The Phillistines became extinct after the whole area was taking by the Babylonians. </p>

<p>There was no Jewish country prior to 1200 BCE, yes, however noone of those nations exist now that were around then. I am sure you know that today’s Egyptians are nothing like the Egyptian’s of the times you discuss now. I should however have been more clearer when I originally posted. I really ment Jews have been in Palestine forever to be backed up by the religious texts of Jews and Muslims, since that argument would be relevant to both. But if you want to look at if from a different perspective, I believe that the Jews are the only nation that is left from that era. I could be wrong though.</p>

<p>Not-golani:</p>

<p>Whether the Philistines were wiped out by the neo-Babylonians is subject to much dispute. But perhaps you have new evidence that will put the question to rest? I’m in touch with some ANE scholars at the University of Chicago and the University of Pennsylvania who will want to hear your incontrovertible evidence.</p>

<p>You most certainly did express yourself badly when you said that everything west of the Jordan was swampland. Frankly, I don’t know of too many mountainous areas with lots of swamp. Do you?</p>

<p>Are the Jews the only nation left from that era? Who cares? The Romans have no legitimate claim that I know of to the entire Mediterranean world because they once owned it. Still, it could easily be argued that the Lebanese are natural inheritors of the name “Canaanite.” And if the modern Egyptians aren’t genetically identical to the ones of that period (they aren’t of course), what of it? Are the Jews? Really? Have you ever been to Israel? Do all Jews look alike there to you? You think none of them have been subject to genetic drift? And you’re telling me there was an unbroken Jewish nation that has lasted as long as Egypt?</p>

<p>If you do not mind tarhunt please enlighten me on the Phillistines</p>

<p>And No one is talking about genetics tarhunt. You are trying to convince me that the Arab Muslim Egyptians or Coptic Christian Egyptians of today are the same nation as those before 1200 BCE? For the same reasons how can the Lebanese of then be the same Lebanese of today. Really the Jews are the only nation that still exists.</p>

<p>I have been and lived in Israel, and Jews have changed genetically, but the nation, culture, and religion is still alive.</p>

<p>I am not sure why you continue this Golani stuff. I never pretended to be part of a unit I am not. If one person here attests to the oppositve that I have pretended to be a golani member I will never post again.</p>

<p>I am curious what kind of work did you do in the Israeli army?</p>

<p>Golani - in the USA these days, blaming America, Bush, and Israel for most of the problems in the world - is the recurring theme oft repeated by THE LEFT</p>

<p>Tarhunt:</p>

<p>Golani deserves none of your derision. He could have been an admirer of the famed brigade and they were his heroes.</p>

<p>Not-Golani:</p>

<p>My first lesson on the Philistines is that the word is spelled with one “l.” The second lesson is that the Levant was not attacked by the Assyrians and Babylonians, but by the neo-Assyrians and neo-Babylonians or, to be more precise, Chaldeans (the word “Babylonian” refers to the place “Babylon” and not the ethnicity of the conquerors from there. Thus, Ramesses II knew the Babylonians as “Kassites.”)</p>

<p>The third lesson is that no one knows what happened to the Philistines. There is no historical document detailing what happened. All that is known is that the historical records we have, which are very spotty from that period, cease to mention them after the Chaldean invasion. There are many scholars who believe the Philistines had already mixed with the Canaanites and Phoenicians (also Canaanites). That Philistia disappeared is certain because we no longer see it today. But then, Israel/Judea as a Jewish state also disappeared, though Persian repatriation meant that they disappeared later.</p>

<p>Once again, not that it matters a whit when it comes to “ownership” of modern Israel. </p>

<p>“The Jews are the only nation that still exists.” Really. Can you point me to the book that gives a detailed history of the political entity that was the Jewish-governed and inhabited state from the destruction of the second Temple on? Egypt has had political boundaries around the Nile that have been there since we have any Egyptian records. Has the ethnic makeup of Egypt changed in that time? Of course. It has changed everywhere except for some isolated communities off civilization’s beaten path. Using your logic, the US is no longer the US because it is now, ethnically, much different that it was in 1800, 1850, 1900, or 1950. And I find your implication that today’s Jews are genetically “pure” and are of the same “nation” (a word I hate in the way that you use it) as the Jews of 2,000 years ago simply ludicrous. </p>

<p>I didn’t do work for the IDF. I did work for the US Army. I studied the culture of the Golani Brigade which has the most unusual culture in the world for such a successful unit.</p>

<p>[edited for courtesy – Mod Amistad]</p>