Shh! Let's Not Talk About Race

<p>My experience as an African American who has spent time in France is that the French of all races love African Americans, and tend to view African Americans as being people of sophistication (possibly because of the history of African American writers, musicians, etc. moving to France).</p>

<p>French people tend not to be particularly fond of white Americans or of Asians of any citizenship. I don’t know why they dislike Asians. The French tend to look down on people from their former colonies and current departments – such as people from Guadeloupe.</p>

<p>It reminds me of the SNL skit, The Coneheads. As if the line, “We are from France” could make up for their odd appearances and mannerisms.</p>

<p>For those under the age of 25…google it.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Kind of makes the point of this entire thread. We leap to assumptions based on any little thing someone says (not picking on you snowball :)). I think that’s why a lot of people will go a long way out of their way to avoid race in general.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>What is it they dislike about white Americans?</p>

<p>I think that French aren’t that fond of white Americans because they view white Americans as being loud and rude (due to many Americans unknowingly not following French rules of politeness, which includes doing things like greeting sales clerks, not just paying them).</p>

<p>From what I saw, however, the French appeared to really dislike Asians and to be very prejudiced against people from their former colonies and current departments.</p>

<p>Due to H’s job, I had the experience of spending a couple of recent summers in Paris. I was treated very well by the French, and clearly was viewed by them as attractive, intelligent and sophisticated. I didn’t meet anyone who told me that I reminded them of their childhood maid or babysitter (comments that white Americans have made to me, including a store clerk), and no one seemed surprised that I like going to the opera or to museums. I was able to get cabs as easily as anyone else, and I wasn’t followed around in stores. Sadly, those aren’t things that I can take for granted in the U.S.</p>

<p>“I’ve never heard any black, Asian, Native American or Hispanic person suggest that not noticing someone’s race is what’s desirable.”</p>

<p>What about Ward Connerly?</p>

<p>I spent a year in France and have traveled there at various times since. I’ve never been treated poorly by the French. I do speak fluent French and generally try to be respectful of local customs, dress etc when I travel. But I do think there may be a sort of generalized expectations of ugly Americans. My German friends were surprised that I didn’t live on hamburgers and cokes.</p>

<p>I’m looking forward to the day when Americans are so mixed up racially that we’ll stop obsessing about race. I have hope for my kid’s generation.</p>

<p>I think all of use should be striving for a colorblind society. We should focus only on behavior and not on race. Unless it is necessary, race should never be mentioned.</p>

<p>About European views of Americans…</p>

<p>My dad is from England, so I visit family in London every summer. Anytime politics comes up, the conversation always shifts to what the “Average American.” I remember a few years ago during one of these conversations, my grandmother casually mentioned how much more sophisticated the average European was than the average American. I thought that the way she said it was particularly interesting - as though there really was no debate about it. And based on newspapers I’ve read, most Brits feel the same way.</p>

<p>Well, in some ways, it makes sense for your grandmother to have that viewpoint. We can visit 50 states in the vicinity of where we live, but ultimately, we are still in America. We go to Mexico and Canada - great places to visit, but not considered cosmopolitan enough by European standards.</p>

<p>The converse is that someone in England is in much closer proximity to many, many different cultures. I don’t think of them as intellectually superior - but definitely with a more worldly bent.</p>

<br>

<br>

<p>Yes, that’s a common European view of Americans to this day. Back in the first half of the 20th century it was very common for Europeans to sneer at Americans as unsophisticated hicks who drank milk and chewed gum. But once WWII came along they were suddenly very grateful to have those milk-drinking, gum-chewing GIs over there saving their butts from their fellow sophisticated Europeans - the Nazis.</p>

<p>Responding to Northstarmom’s experiences in France: We noticed that when we were in Germany, that the Germans go out of their way to be nice to blacks of any nationality. But their goal at heart seems to be to prove they are so much above “white Americans” about not being predjudiced. It was even verbalized to us directly and indirectly many times - in a sense contradicting themselves by their insistence in pointing it out. </p>

<p>We had a close friend who was black - but German. Whenever she was with us, other German friends automatically assumed she was American, and spoke English to her. It was fun watching their faces when she answered in German and explained that no, she wasn’t visiting.</p>

<p>One of my (white) German friends came to visit a couple years ago, soon after we moved home. We decided to spend the day in downtown Atlanta, and I chose to take MARTA rather than drive. This met with my German friend’s approval, as she, like most Germans, thinks Americans drive too much. (I agree.) On our way home, we ended up being the only white folks in a crowded car. She turned to me with a very strange expression, and said with some surprise, “I’m uncomfortable.” It was not threatening in anyway - they were just other riders who happened to be black; she had never been in that situation before, and her preconceived notions of being superior in attitudes of predjudice were shaken. She is good friends with the same German black friend I mentioned above. I think it had never occurred to her that their might be a difference between skin color differences and cultural differences. I think it is actually the cultural differences that separate us the most.</p>

<p>What an interesting discussion! I think part of the problem with racial blindness (at least for me) is finding the politically correct label. When I was young, black people preferred to be called Negroes and then it was black and then afro-americans. I’ve always realized that it wasn’t like it was a group decision, but I don’t want to make anyone feel uncomfortable so there’s sometimes an awkward pause in my mind when thinking of how to describe someone. </p>

<p>Black actually doesn’t seem correct when you are talking about someone that’s barely tan, and then I start thinking about how they probably have more Caucasian blood then anything else. African-American is pretty strange too - who knows if someone is from Africa or are Americans? Am I German-American because that’s where my ancesters came from 200 years ago?? I had a co-worker who was raised in South Africa (she’s white) but is now an American citizen. Is she an African-American?</p>

<p>Nice insight binx. You are likely right on target with the race vs. culture thing. I’m the first one to look twice at a group of white kids that look less than savory…the same as if I see a group of black kids that look like trouble. Interesting notion.</p>

<p>If, as a nation, we hadn’t gone directly from overt and oftentimes condoned racism to bending over backwards to keep from offending, things might be better. It seems like we skipped the talking step which is necessary for there to be real understanding and healing. </p>

<p>As a white person, I don’t feel like I can even ask questions about things like affirmative action and preferential treatment for minorities in college admissions, for fear I will be branded a racist. I have never had a real discussion with someone of color on the topic – I’m afraid they will hate me for bringing it up. I was very glad Senator Obama mentioned this in his speech regarding race relations after the Rev. Wright incident. I think Sen. Obama may be the catalyst for frank discussions on race if/when other more pressing crises pass.</p>

<p>Ahhh–this is explaining a conversation at work where a black person insinuated that the white person had a “problem” because they were uncomfortable describing people by the colors of their skin.</p>

<p>The problem is fear of being labeled as a racist for saying something that could be politically incorrect…</p>

<p>Good post Binx, but what cultural differences would be present in the Atlanta MARTA that would be uncomfortable for your friend? Other than the numbers involved. I don’t go to Atlanta often, but it’s always been my impression that Atlanta is a mecca for the black middle class and upper class business world mover and shaker types. I could be wrong, but that is my impression. I’ve never found Atlanta to be either scary or uncomfortable, just extremely crowded with nightmare traffic.</p>

<p>I will say that among my black friends where I live, they all worry that their kids are going to move to Atlanta and never come back. The kids see it as the land of oppty.</p>

<p>I’ll tell a story here that I have related in other threads. I’m a baby boomer, which is another way of saying that I’m a good bit older than most people who post on College Confidential. I distinctly remember the day that President John F. Kennedy was assassinated–the most memorable day of early childhood for many people in my generation–and I remember the “long hot summer” and other events of the 1960s civil rights movement. </p>

<p>One early memory I have is of a second grade classmate (I still remember his name, which alas is just common enough that it is hard to Google him up) who moved back to Minnesota with his northern “white” parents after spending his early years in Alabama. He told me frightening stories about Ku Klux Klan violence to black people (the polite term in those days was “Negroes”), including killing babies, and I was very upset to hear about that kind of terrorism happening in the United States. He made me aware of a society in which people didn’t all treat one another with decency and human compassion, unlike the only kind of society I was initially aware of from growing up where I did. So I followed subsequent news about the civil rights movement, including the activities of Martin Luther King, Jr. up to his assassination, with great interest. </p>

<p>It happens that I had a fifth-grade teacher, a typically pale, tall, and blonde Norwegian-American, who was a civil rights activist and who spent her summers in the south as a freedom rider. She used to tell our class about how she had to modify her car (by removing the dome light and adding a locking gas cap) so that Klan snipers couldn’t shoot her as she opened her car door at night or put foreign substances into her gas tank. She has been a civil rights activist all her life, and when I Googled her a few years ago and regained acquaintance with her, I was not at all surprised to find that she is a member of the civil rights commission of the town where I grew up. </p>

<p>One day in fifth grade we had a guest speaker in our class, a young man who was then studying at St. Olaf College through the A Better Chance (ABC) affirmative action program. (To me, the term “affirmative action” still means active recruitment of underrepresented minority students, as it did in those days, and I have always thought that such programs are a very good idea, as some people have family connections to selective colleges, but many other people don’t.) During that school year (1968-1969), there was a current controversy in the United States about whether the term “Negro” or “Afro-American” or “black” was most polite. So a girl in my class asked our visitor, “What do you want to be called, ‘black’ or ‘Afro-American’?” His answer was, “I’d rather be called Henry.” Henry’s answer to my classmate’s innocent question really got me thinking. </p>

<p>Thus far my story from my childhood. I agree with what appears to be the premise of the study in the link from the thread-opening post, that many white people are uneasy about describing black people in that manner. For someone my age, that could be a result of the changes in polite vocabulary that have occurred in my lifetime. (And I rather suspect that in some countries in Europe, and definitely in most countries of east Asia, there has been no comparable linguistic change in our lifetime.) The other problem, of course, is that any term for the antebellum slave-descended black population in the United States seems to pick up “secondary meaning,” which is both a cause and an effect of persistent social prejudice. People who talk about “color-blind” ways of dealing with people, as Martin Luther King, Jr. did in his I Have a Dream speech and as my class visitor Henry did many years ago, were making an honest effort to try to avoid having individuals overclassified into one inclusive group. </p>

<p>I’m glad my children, who have always had black neighbors and thus never felt social isolation from black people, feel comfortable just matter-of-factly describing a person as black, as they would also describe other neighbors as white, Indian (here meaning “from India”), Asian (in my family, “Asian” is the default spoken term for what I write as “east Asian”), etc., with other descriptive terms (“tall,” “big,” “blond,” “with eyeglasses”) used with no more secondary meaning in their minds than those terms. We have a variety of neighbors and get along with all of them. Descriptions of people’s personal appearance shouldn’t be forced to carry a lot of other personal baggage unrelated to that issue. </p>

<p>I’ll tell one more story. I once was on a business trip with two officials from China, working as their interpreter. I checked into a hotel in another city, and the hotel staff heard me speaking Chinese to the Chinese officials. After I made sure they were settled in their rooms, one of the hotel staff members, a tall, slim, black man, said to me, “Was that Chinese?” He was evidently impressed that I, who looked white, could speak that language. He said, “I can speak Arabic and Italian,” and I immediately said, “Oh, you must be from _______.” </p>

<p>Do you know the country?</p>

<p>Something in North Africa? What?</p>

<p>Well, not anywhere in southern Africa, for sure. Any other guesses?</p>