Should children of illegal immigrants pay instate tuition?

Parent Cafe
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<p>My grandmother who arrived in 1921 until the day she died (1979) thought she was speaking English. Thing was - no native English speaker (including my wife) could ever have understood her. It was an interesting patois of Yiddish, Russian, Polish, German, Slavic, with some English slang thrown in. Until 1963 or so, there were 5 Yiddish newspapers in NYC, and that’s all she read. </p>

<p>They did just fine, fractured English and all. My mother went to college FREE at Baruch (City College of New York); my father, son of an illegal immigrant (the one through Canada) went to college FREE through the GI bill. They all received substantial government help through the Works Progress Administration (WPA), Social Security, and the city and state of New York.</p>

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<p>I am reading well considered responses on both sides of the issues, always a treat!</p>

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<p>My mother, who was born in Chicago in 1913 to Polish and German immigrant grandparents and to parents who were born in America and a mother who spoke both English and Polish, learned to read and write Polish AND English in a Catholic parochial school. She left school in the eighth grade to take a secretarial position when her father died (she was an exceptionally fast typist and shorthand-taker). Her spelling, grammar and basic math skills were excellent with an eighth grade education. In addition, none of my family had ever taken government assistance, most especially my father, who graduated from high school in 1929, got a job in the mailroom of a major U.S. company, and worked himself up the corporate ladder, on a high school education.</p>

<p>In my opinion, a large part of the problem we are having now is due to the corruption of our educational system. I wonder why people are concerned about paying for state colleges for these kids, when the majority of all of our low income kids in our major cities have an approximate 50% drop-out rate and can’t even pass an eighth grade competency exam? Our educational system can’t achieve a literate English-speaking population by the eighth grade for so many of our legal immigrants, let alone our illegal immigrants. Are they to jump from eighth grade skills, limited English, to college? Or are all 600 of these kids just that exceptional? “Student protest?” I wonder.</p>

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<p>Hereshoping, I think that was a great point and something I hadn’t considered. I also think there’s something to be said for the fact that there are so many entitlement programs as it is that there comes a point where working people cry “uncle.”</p>

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<p>as long as their parents pay taxes, I don’t care; they’re benefitting from the system that they help to support.</p>

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<p>Actually, that has been computed - they pay WAY more in taxes and Social Security, etc., than they ever get back from the system. BUT - much of the surpluses have been captured on the federal level (they pay for my mother’s Social Security) at the same time that public services are increasing defunded by the feds and sent down to the states. That’s why the created perception of “bleeding the system dry”, when it is in fact the white, male Republicans and the war in Iraq that is actually bankrupting the country (though there are some who are doing awfully well by it. ;))</p>

<p>War-making is the ultimate “entitlement” program. And now that the Democrats have decided to “abandon the troops” by funding the lying, cheating, deception, and malfeasance of the Administration, there will be even less to go around.</p>

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<p>“That’s why the created perception of “bleeding the system dry”, when it is in fact the white, male Republicans and the war in Iraq that is actually bankrupting the country (though there are some who are doing awfully well by it. )”</p>

<p>Here’s where we split up! I think the financial damage done on the local level can be catastrophic in many ways. I often wonder (and I do mean wonder, I’m asking a question and not making a statement) if employers wink and nod about employing people they are pretty sure are illegal “off the books” actually pay the required social security money. I also feel very sorry for the people whose identities are stolen.</p>

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<p>In land use regulation there’s the concept of “nexus.” What that means is that if a developer wants to develop a new neighborhood with 2,000 homes, the government agency responsible for issuing the permits, etc., can require the developer to include (non-revenue generating) parks, build schools or pay money to the school district to offset the capital expense of providing desks for the kids who will live in the new homes, etc. That’s because there’s a nexus between the new development and the need for those capital items. But you can’t make the developer build a habitat for endangered frogs on the other side of town, even if you need one, unless the new development creates the need for it.</p>

<p>Which is a roundabout way to illustrate the fact that I don’t see a nexus between being a citizen and your tuition rate. Resident, yes - residents pay taxes which support the public schools, and non-residents don’t - but citizenship, no. So whatever your thoughts are on illegal or undocumented aliens, I don’t see the logic of using this particular whip to punish them, just like I don’t get the logic of denying them driver’s licenses - and therefore denying the rest of us the benefit of the insurance they could get if they had licenses.</p>

<p>Nexus. It’s a handy concept.</p>

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<p>“I think the financial damage done on the local level can be catastrophic in many ways.”</p>

<p>We disagree less than you think. The defunding of federal health centers, and cuts in federal support for Medicaid (I could make a long list) have been absolutely catastrophic - and there is no way states and localities can make up the difference. I am sure too that there are plenty of folks paid off the books - since this is the norm for so many native white folks, I can hardly imagine it would be different among undocumented workers. You’re not likely to find that in the major areas where undocumented are employed, though - farm labor, packing plants, out of labor halls for construction, etc. - as these are among the most highly regulated and inspected of industries - though it is also true that the Republicans have overseen signficant budget cuts to the Department of Labor.</p>

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<p>I don’t care if children of undocumented workers attend public schools
However, I think that we need more support for programs and facilities to bring them to the level of the schools they will be entering.</p>

<p>For instance- my D schools PTA raises hundreds of thousands of dollars every year. One of the reasons why they are so driven to do so is that we have a large group of students who are just learning English, and aren’t at high school level. The PTA hires staff and pays for curriculum to help these students- obstensibly the program is for kids who just didn’t learn to perform at a high school level, but most are actually ESL students.</p>

<p>What happens to the kids who end up at schools who might not even * have* a PTA to pay for support?</p>

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<p>I saw a story on NBC a couple of weeks ago about a town in Colorado that has a large Mexican population, many of whom work in the construction industry. They, too, as Mini stated, confirmed that millions and millions of dollars are paid in taxes and Social Security than these people will ever see in return. The story followed the owners of a construction company and detailed the number of immigrants who worked for them, and the issues surrounding who was and was not legal, and the owners’ attempts to confirm this prior to hiring. It was interesting how the owners of this business quite obviously liked their immigrant employees and their work ethic and sense of responsibility, which were in stark contrast to that of the ‘homebred’ locals who turned their noses up at $14/hr. jobs. </p>

<p>This is obviously just one anecdotal report and the issue is a large and complicated one that isn’t likely to be resolved anytime soon. After seeing that show, I was reading discussions on a couple of forums that were linked in a related article and the sheer bigotry and hateful comments were shocking. After reading some of the comments on this thread, it reminds me of the some of the differences relating to immigration attitudes in Canada vs. in the U.S. </p>

<p>The U.S. favors the melting pot idea where everyone is (strongly) encouraged to assimilate and as quickly as possible. In Canada, multiculturalism is celebrated and government funded. There are national policies for multiculturalism. Schools provide ESL teachers. There are Heritage Language programs where children of immigrants can attend free classes on Saturdays so that they may learn the mother tongue of their parents. More than 40% of the population of Toronto is foreign-born.</p>

<p>I’m not saying that there aren’t any related problems, but I don’t see the anger against immigrants here that I’ve seen in the U.S., legal or illegal. I’ve often wondered if part of it is that Canada is a country that has always had two official languages and that perhaps that has paved the way for a more accepting attitude. As Mini stated that where he lives, they have street signs in Chinese, etc., Toronto has the same with many distinct areas of the city; Chinatown, Greektown, Little Italy, Koreatown, and various other communities including those who are Portuguese, Indian, Jewish, West Indian, Somali, the list goes on and on. Street signs, business signs including banks advertising that particular languages are spoken there. I’ve always found it to be a positive, making it a vibrant and interesting city. How boring if we were all the same.</p>

<p>Regarding the topic of the thread: I think that these kids should very definitely be entitled to in state tuition rates. If they are residents of the state and are graduating from high schools in the state, that should be enough.</p>

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<p>

In our area schools, the most PTA’s are able to raise is usually 20K-30K annually. Needless, to say most of the budget goes to things like library updates, computer updating, teacher supplies–the money is gone quickly. However, the county budget always includes ESL teachers and support programs, but in the elementary and middle schools-- foreign language, arts, and music have been downsized or outright cut out for the entire student population.</p>

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<p>always:</p>

<p>I doubt that Canada has anywhere near the illegal immigration problem the USA has due to geography. Illegal immigration in the USA is a very real issue. This has nothing at all to do with legal immigration, melting pot, different cultures, etc. all of which are a boon to this country when performed in a lawful and controlled manner. The issue of out-of-control illegal immigration by people purposely breaking our laws is a very real issue that causes all manner of problems including crime and cost to legal taxpayers. I live in an area overwhelmed by illegals and the issues are numerous and real.</p>

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<p>ucsd, oh, I wasn’t suggesting that Canada had a problem to the same extent. I was simply commenting in response to some of the posts in this thread such as these:</p>

<p>“Time to stop enabling ethnic cleansing in dysfunctional nations.”</p>

<p>"I’m all for immigration, but I’d like to know who’s coming here. "</p>

<p>“I respectfully believe that there is a small but important minority of folks sneaking across the border who are hardcore criminals.”</p>

<p>“I’ve also seen a huge increase of immigrants who not only don’t speak English, but don’t speak Spanish, either (Indian dialects) and have no history or ancestry of literacy in any language. My personal opinion (which I understand others may not share) is that these people are very close to unassimilable.”</p>

<p>“did they start to print signs on highways in another country’s language? Just asking–I honestly don’t know. But I do know that in our area, that is one of the biggest issues that irritate “locals”.”</p>

<p>“there just isn’t unlimited money to pay for everything that anyone thinks would be fair and nice for some group of people. It’s so tough to decide something that will hurt people who are already here, but like other things financed with tax dollars, boundaries do have to be set.”</p>

<p>It often seems, as mentioned in previous posts, to be very much an “us and them” situation for many people, and I’m not totally convinced that these attitudes are saved solely for those immigrants who are illegals. I’m aware that the problem is a huge one in the U.S. and that it has been ignored for decades. I don’t see how denying residents the right to in-state tuition at state colleges is going to go very far in addressing the issue. Many of these kids have presumably been in the public school system for most, if not all, of their school years. Do we not care that they’re illegals when they’re in high school? Since it’s obvious that no one is going to round up ten million illegal aliens and return them to Mexico, shouldn’t we be encouraging these kids to become educated? Isn’t one of the common complaints on this thread that there is added crime, gang activity, etc.? It seems to me that education is one way to help prevent that proliferation of crime and negative behavior.</p>

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<p>Does anyone have any factual studies to back up the assertions that illegal immigrants pay “millions and millions” in tax dollars that they never “see in return?” I have heard people freely fling this idea about, as though it is a given, but it just does not make sense. (I believe there are also studies proving the contrary.)</p>

<p>From a practical standpoint, its very difficult for me to believe that a laborer making $14.00 per hour (example given above) is contributing in any meaningful way to the cost of the free social services s/he will recieve back in his/her lifetime in this country. If my math is correct, his annual salary would be $29,170. What would his tax liability be? A couple thousand?</p>

<p>I recall that the average public schooling of one child costs taxpayers $8,000 -10,000 per year. Add in free childbirth and medical, not to mention the costs to our environment, etc. Hmmmm, what am I missing?</p>

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<p><a href=“http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html[/url]”>http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Article goes on to talk about how amnesty would increase the drain and that “education level is the primary determinant of tax payments made and services used…”</p>

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<p>If parents pay taxes and state residency is established( rent or mortgage, bank accounts, drivers’ licences and so on) , I don’t see why not. It would have saved us a lot of hassle. We had everything to establish WA residency but green card(agjustment of status pending) . Despite being perfectly legal and having lived in WA for 3 years we were required to pay OOS tuition. Luckily our green cards arrived in the nick of time, otherwise I don’t know how we would’ve managed.</p>

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<p>

Many illegals are paid in cash and pay no income, SS, or medicare taxes whatsoever. </p>

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That’s probably true for some people but not for all. It’s not true for me. I have issues with illegals but none whatsoever for legal immigrants. One of the great things about this country (and some others including Canada) is the diversity of the people that make up the country.</p>

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Because many of them aren’t ‘legal’ residents just as many people from other states and countries who would like to attend the UCs aren’t and therefore aren’t entitled to in-state tuition either. There are many who would love to.</p>

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We should since it’s a huge cost and burden on our school system.</p>

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<p>To address the OP’s question - </p>

<p>IMO - If the kids are illegal residents, then they shouldn’t get in-state tuition - they’d be receiving the same treatment in this regard as legal citizens who aren’t valid residents for college purposes.
OTOH, if the kids are legal citizens who were born here to illegals (and there are many), then they probably should receive in-state tuition at least in the state where they were born even if not the state they’re currently residing.</p>

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<p>ucsd, it all comes back to the fact that little has been done regarding this problem and these kids are here, have been educated in the public school system through high school, and as residents of their respective states should be able to pay in-state tuition. Is there a stipulation of “legal” resident regarding in-state tuition or is it simply defined as “resident”? I understand that there may be many from other states and countries who would love to be entitled, but they are not residents, legal or otherwise. I think the immigration issue should be addressed but this particular venue (in-state tuition) seems like the wrong one.</p>

<p>Bay, I wasn’t “flinging the idea around”. I was simply repeating what had been quoted on the NBC special, in that particular situation. Maybe Tom Brokaw was misinformed, maybe not. However, I’m not sure we should start determining the worth and value of ANYone’s contribution to society based on what they do for a living and how much they earn.</p>