<p>“I doubt that Canada has anywhere near the illegal immigration problem the USA has”</p>
<p>It could also be due to the fact that it is easier to be a legal immigrant in Canada than US. The Canadians had decided that the only way to grow is to have more people. More young people can also support the social programs and benefits for old people via taxes.</p>
<p>“If parents pay taxes and state residency is established( rent or mortgage, bank accounts, drivers’ licences and so on) , I don’t see why not.”
How would that work in a logistical sense with no legal social security number? Would such even be possible?</p>
<p>"That’s probably true for some people but not for all. It’s not true for me. I have issues with illegals but none whatsoever for legal immigrants. "</p>
<p>It is also not true for me since I voluntarily spend so much time and often money trying to help people I know to be in this country illegally learn to read and write to the best of my ability and with my whole heart.</p>
<p>Here’s where I’m going to get myself in trouble, but I don’t think that asking people in this country illegally (remember, these aren’t the citizen children of illegals) to pay out-of-state tuition is comparable to standing in the doorway with a gun. I think it’s ok to expect it to be easier for people who do the right thing and play by the rules to get a leg-up from their fellow citizens. As I said earlier, the money has to come from somewhere – taxpayers who go to work every day and have money removed from their checks. I still think it’s a darn good deal for someone to commit a crime and then be able to get a college education. Many people on this forum rightly tell kids with a sense of entitlement to get a job, to work hard, to save, to scrimp and that’s fine. But why shouldn’t illegal immigrants know up front “ok, you can get a college degree, but you’re going to have to work hard for it.” What is so wrong with that?</p>
<p>NY times - Illegals bolstering SS with billions. 150 BILLION in 00-02. Figures from Federal govt. Accounting Office used, so this is not based on any one ideology or political bent. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ex=1270353600&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ex=1270353600&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland</a></p>
<p>too busy to do a full search this a.m. to see which think tank leans which way but here is one, with statement backing what was just written. The feds rake in 150 billion while local govt. takes a hit.
<a href=“http://www.cis.org/topics/costs.html[/url]”>http://www.cis.org/topics/costs.html</a>
The National Research Council has estimated that the net fiscal cost of immigration ranges from $11 billion to $22 billion per year, with most government expenditures on immigrants coming from state and local coffers, while most taxes paid by immigrants go to the federal treasury. The net deficit is caused by a low level of tax payments by immigrants, because they are disproportionately low-skilled and thus earn low wages, and a higher rate of consumption of government services, both because of their relative poverty and their higher fertility.
This is especially true of illegal immigration. Even though illegal aliens make little use of welfare, from which they are generally barred, the costs of illegal immigration in terms of government expenditures for education, criminal justice, and emergency medical care are significant. California has estimated that the net cost to the state of providing government services to illegal immigrants approached $3 billion during a single fiscal year. The fact that states must bear the cost of federal failure turns illegal immigration, in effect, into one of the largest unfunded federal mandates. </p>
<p>I wrote elsewhere I blame our attitude on Reagan, though all he did was take advantage of national fears - those “welfare queens” were stealing from “us”. This is a time honored way to pass the buck, get votes and keep the status quo. You want to change this, follow the money, not the rhetoric.
(no clue but what would happen to SS without these billions pumping in?)</p>
<p>How would that work in a logistical sense with no legal social security number? Would such even be possible?
well it certainly isn’t legal- but I have been dealing with credit fraud linked to my soc sec # for several years, including someone who very well be undocumented given as how they have had about 22 addresses in the last two years- In California- where I havent even been for 36 years- but I am still trying to prove to the credit bureau that I * don’t* live there.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673/[/url]”>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673/</a></p>
<p>OldinJersey, couple of questions for you: I asked you yesteday what your thoughts were on the fact that most (all?) of the money paid into SS by illegals involves identity theft, which is not a victimless crime.</p>
<p>Per Reagan and his “welfare queens.” Rudy Guiliani proved without question that welfare fraud and false dependence was rampant. The statistics in New York Ctiy prove that amply. You clearly have a thing about Reagan, but he was right about this as he was about many things. </p>
<p>I really don’t get the mindset of throwing money around like it grows on trees. We work very hard for our money and it shouldn’t be spent lightly. I think it’s perfectly valid for people to qualify for entitlements and for the people paying for them to have some say in who qualifies. Welfare reform has been a huge boon to taxpayers AND to recipients.</p>
<p>zoosermom, here’s an article that you might find of interest. Perhaps you, like many, are not aware of these IRS numbers.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/14/politics/main549153.shtml[/url]”>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/14/politics/main549153.shtml</a></p>
<p>“I really don’t get the mindset of throwing money around like it grows on trees. We work very hard for our money and it shouldn’t be spent lightly.”</p>
<p>Then, shouldn’t you start with the war? With the cost of the war, we can guarantee EVERY qualified undocumented immigrant a FREE college education, and have enough money to provide health insurance to every single U.S. resident, documented or not, and still have plenty left over to “rescue” Social Security (which is currently being rescued by undocumented workers.)</p>
<p>Why is war an “entitlement program”?</p>
<p>I am aware of those numbers but I am also aware that most illegals (here) don’t use them. Thank you for posting.</p>
<p>"Then, shouldn’t you start with the war? With the cost of the war, we can guarantee EVERY qualified undocumented immigrant a FREE college education, and have enough money to provide health insurance to every single U.S. resident, documented or not, and still have plenty left over to “rescue” Social Security (which is currently being rescued by undocumented workers.)</p>
<p>Why is war an “entitlement program”?‘’</p>
<p>Mini, you have a great point about the war and it should be debated, discussed and acted upon. Absolutely. However, there are no circumstances under which I would support this “we can guarantee EVERY qualified undocumented immigrant a FREE college education, and have enough money to provide health insurance to every single U.S. resident, documented or not.” I don’t want my money used for that and I’d much rather have my taxes cut than spend them that way. I completely understand and respect that you feel the same way about the war.</p>
<p>This is long and pretty old, but still worth reading…
<a href=“http://wired-vig.wired.com/wired/archive/13.04/robot.html?pg=1&topic=robot&topic_set=[/url]”>http://wired-vig.wired.com/wired/archive/13.04/robot.html?pg=1&topic=robot&topic_set=</a></p>
<p>Wouldn’t it be wonderful for Mexico’s economy if those gifted young people were welcome to remain at home and thrive in their own country without having to sneak in somewhere else, live in the shadows and struggle?</p>
<p>I asked if undocumented immigrants or their children should be allowed to pay instate tuition to attend Arizona’s universities. If the answer is that everyone, citizen or documented and undocumented immigrant alike, is entitled to a free university education (not to mention free healthcare and free everything else etc.) then my question is moot.</p>
<p>“Wouldn’t it be wonderful for Mexico’s economy…”</p>
<p>Best solution of all. Grow the economy, provide jobs, rule of law, guarantee personal and property rights. We would have to put up a fence to keep the lettuce pickers here. Take a look at what is happening in Ireland after a century and a half of being a net exporter of human capital.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I don’t know about Canada, but in this country for people who spend hours and hours debating the finest gradations of prestige and lifetime benefits of attending, say, Amherst vs. Haverford to suggest that assimilation (which is dependent on a quality high school education and learning English, among other things) isn’t the quickest way for lower income groups to make it into the middle class is very perplexing to me.</p>
<p>Let’s face it. The DoD is going to have trouble meeting Gates’ surge quota. Those immigrants will come in handy in a pinch, in “serving their country”. There’s one way to turn an illegal to legal quickly, and I suspect we shall see some of that happening.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Illegals are here illegally - even if some business brought them here, it was still their choice and they should live with it. I don’t feel like the USA owes them anything (apparently except treating them the same as normal citizens and throwing money at them when we don’t exactly have all that much to be throwing in the first place). Speaking of the war in Iraq in comparison to illegal immigrations is way off the mark Mini, I understand you have your opinions concerning it, but I’d much rather fight a war to protect a supply of oil and gain a democratic foothold in the middle east than give money to people we do not want here in the first place (I have no problem spending money to support a reconstruction of Mexico’s economy so that the illegals can work in their own country legally, but I doubt that will happen any time soon with the corrupt state of Mexico’s government).</p></li>
<li><p>Out of state tuition for the illegals gives our state more money. How can that possibly be bad? It’s not like anyone wants them to be competing for jobs with other college graduates anyway. The illegals can continue to be a source of exploited labor, or they can go back to Mexico.</p></li>
<li><p>I don’t think the people from areas outside of the southwest understand the issue too well. I’m thrilled that Arizona is finally doing something about illegal immigration - it doesn’t matter if forcing them (and it most assuredly is “them”) to pay out of state tuition won’t stop them from coming here in the first place, the key is not to enable their illegal behavior.</p></li>
<li><p>Here’s a list of the changes that will occur as a result of various propositions passed in Arizona.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>“Assuming they survive court challenges, the measures will prevent illegal immigrants from taking adult-education classes, getting state-funded child care assistance and paying in-state tuition at state colleges and universities, automatically keep those charged with serious felonies in jail without bail, and prevent them from receiving punitive damages in civil lawsuits.
Proposition 103 establishes English as the state’s official language, 18 years after voters passed a similar proposition in 1988 that was later overruled by the Arizona and U.S. Supreme Courts.” (<a href=“http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/politics/154979.php[/url]”>http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/politics/154979.php</a>)</p>
<p>“Those immigrants will come in handy in a pinch, in “serving their country”. There’s one way to turn an illegal to legal quickly, and I suspect we shall see some of that happening.”</p>
<p>Legal immigrants can already enlist and the DoD will assist active duty non-citizens with the application process for naturalization. From <a href=“http://www.jagcnet.army.mil%5B/url%5D”>www.jagcnet.army.mil</a>
<a href=“http://■■■■■■■.com/ds2rg[/url]”>http://■■■■■■■.com/ds2rg</a>
“Recently, the Department of Defense partnered with the Immigration & Naturalization Service (INS) to assist active duty, non-citizen military members with citizenship applications.”</p>
<p>That applies to legal immigrants. It is not a route for an illegal to take to legal status or to citizenship. But if illegal immigrants can bluff their way into universities and pay instate rates, I guess they will find a way into the military. I admire them for doing it but don’t condone it and think it should be prevented. Staffing our military is our responsibility.</p>
<p>zoosermom:
I honestly don’t know how childen of illegal immigrants can apply to college at all, with regard to SSN. So the question of tuition is a secondary one for me. In our own case, S got his SSN when it was still possible to get on for a child of foreign student( and I got mine as a spouse of one, now it is next to impossible, which makes lives of student spouses, in country absolutely legally, even harder) .</p>