<p>Re: Pat Buchanan
You might want to read Mark Steyn’s “America Alone”.
<a href=“http://216.92.123.84/product28.html[/url]”>http://216.92.123.84/product28.html</a>
I find him much more palatable than Buchanan (that’s not saying much).
Today I saw in the paper that the Associated Press is reporting that France is experiencing the highest number of births in a number of years and the birth rate is nearly 2 (2.1 being replacement). The French official reporting the data says that the birth rate is “slightly higher” in the immigrant (mostly Muslim) population than among the native French. I think from Steyn’s book that that is an understatement and an attempt by the government to obscure the growing demographic problem that will tear France apart. If that isn’t already happening.</p>
<p>We are already giving them free healthcare. They are filling up are free hospitals and filling up our jails (at least down here in TX). We allow their kids to be US citizens as long as they run to the US real quick to have their babies. Many pay no income tax and they pay much less per person on property taxes than the average american (considering the number of people they fit into one residence, and the average cost of the residence)</p>
<p>I honestly have no problem with allowing the ones that are here to get in-state tuition. If you are here already, I’d much rather you succeed than fail. I’d much rather you contribute to society than degrade it.</p>
<p>How about this for a novel notion though…SHUT DOWN THE F’ING BORDER. Then, we don’t have worry about these issues.</p>
<p>Another novel notion: Put economic sanctions on Mexico until that govt cleans up it’s act and begins to allow the poor to succeed there. Millions (maybe Billions) of Dollars flow from the US to Mexico every year from Mexican citizens living in the US. Mexico has the advantage of being next to the world’s greatest super power. Many of Mexico’s poorest people leave to the US, yet I don’t see the poor in Mexico really improving. </p>
<p>Opportunities are being grown in countries like India and China, but there will never be opportunities created in Mexico if things aren’t changed. What China/India are going through right now, Mexico should have gone through 20 to 30 years ago. It’s sad that nobody wants to do anything about it.</p>
<p>btw, I realize this thread is like 3 months old.</p>
<p>I think legal immigrants are getting the short end of the stick. The smartest people who come here and PAY THE FULL COST OF THEIR COLLEGE EDUCATIONS can’t work here because there’s a ridiculously low cap+huge backlog of H1B applications. Seriously this is the beginning of the decline of America. You guys are losing some of the smartest and brightest in the world to countries with more lax immigration policies i.e. Canada.</p>
<p>Would you stay in the same job for 15 years in the hopes of MAYBE getting your greencard, or would you quit and go somewhere else to i.e. Canada where they give you your permanent resident card within 3-4 years if you’re qualified depending on where you apply. In Sao Paolo Canada might process your application within a year.</p>
<p>Concerning just education alone --at the stage that we have reached in certain states in our country – idealism has come up against the solid wall of pragmatism. I consider myself one of the ultimate (and often foolish) idealists. I’m employed in a largely altruistic field (education), including in the roles I play therein, which are not unionized roles, and more service than salaried. </p>
<p>Resources are finite, folks, whether those are in the medical area or in the educational area. When I say resources I mean both cash & personnel. The language education needs are gigantic in any state which is overwhelmed by immigrants, in any state in which they are a sizeable minority, let alone a majority of public school students. In my State, there is a desperate need of ELL, ESL, and EFL teachers. There are not enough of those in the entire State to serve the immigrant population, and the results are horrendous. Horrendous on that population, horrendous on the English speaking population, which has taken a back seat to the majority immigrant population in most districts in my region. There is actually not much literacy even in their native language(s), which is an additional problem. We’re talking about an essentially Third World flood on resources that were never designed to accommodate that, and which are not being supplemented by federal funds, either. </p>
<p>Sure, I have no problem with immigrants continuing to enter in massive numbers, as long as they start bringing literate, educated, teachers with them who are prepared to remain with that population. The population that is truly getting the shaft is the very poor African-American student population on all K-12 levels; they are usually outnumbered & therefore are being left behind, big time, & cannot afford private schools. (EAALB = Every African American Left Behind)</p>
<p>Sorry to be rude, but some of you have no idea what you’re talking about. It’s fantasy, not reality.</p>
<p>Epiphany, your post straightforwardly and honestly describes consequences of illegal immigration that NY Times writer/economist Paul Krugman has said immigration advocates ignore.</p>
<p>Thank you, LW, for the tip about Krugman. I’ll read him.<br>
I’ve heard him mentioned. </p>
<p>Most of the boiling hot discussion about immigration is limited to one extreme political agenda or another, failing to deal either with some of the realities I mentioned OR with the realities in Mexico & other south-of-us countries. This is also the result of long-standing U.S. national apathy about conditiions resulting in inevitable invasion of our borders. By this point, given the cumulative billions of “undocumented” dollars flowing into Mexico & a few other countries, those gov’ts have little incentive to take steps to make life more livable within their own countries. Emigration from Mexico is of enormous benefit to the economic & political status quo of Mexico.</p>
<p>…And it is of little personal consequence to the power-holders in our Congress & in our business sectors (except, in an economically beneficial way vis-a-vis business profits). <em>Their</em> children, like the children of the wealthy in my State, attend privates. (So do mine. The difference is, I do give two figs.)</p>
<p>“In my State, there is a desperate need of ELL, ESL, and EFL teachers.”</p>
<p>I wish I had some historical citations to rely on, but I’ve always understood that when my Yiddish-speaking grandparents arrived in America, there were no ESL programs in the Chicago public schools they attended. Everyone got mainstreamed immediately, and even though there were lots of Yiddish-speakers in the same schools due to segregated neighborhoods, and even though only Yiddish was spoken at home, and even though there was no TV and lots of families couldn’t afford a radio…within a year all the kids spoke good English. Kids who were ~14 or younger on arrival became accentless, fluent speakers of American English; older kids had accents; they all did fine.</p>
<p>IMHO, no healthy child younger than high school age needs ESL teachers. They need total immersion in an English world. Yes, English is pretty much all they’ll learn that first year, but they have much better odds of catching up academically in the long run if they grasp the language fast. So put all the ESL teachers in high schools, where the kids have outgrown their natural absorption power, and the teacher shortage goes away.</p>
<p>Hanna, I appreciate your post, and understand your points. However (and I have pointed out this on earlier threads) there were different expectations and circumstances in the example you raised. Your relatives expected to have to communicate in a dominantly English-speaking world; hence the motivation. (“Bilingualism,” btw, has proven to be ineffective in such immerson & hence was scrapped by my State. That is a little different from ESL & ELL, etc. teaching.)</p>
<p>Unlike in earlier eras, Latino immigrants are not necessarily as motivated. I can name you some areas of Southern CA, for example (not near the border), where English is literally the foreign language, and where the dominant language of conversation on the street is Spanish. If you’re from out of town, good luck getting directions. In previous eras you would find immigrants who never did fully immerse themselves in English (such as my own grandmother from Eastern Europe), but they never became a significant critical mass in the population. </p>
<p>“So put all the ESL teachers in high schools, where the kids have outgrown their natural absorption power, and the teacher shortage goes away.”</p>
<p>No, that’s not what has worked. What is beginning to work now (though there are a tiny fraction of these, not enough to make a difference) is immersion on the youngest (preschool) levels. Language learning is most efficiently done quite early, and this is the entire problem with loading it into the high school years in <em>mainstreamed</em> classrooms which include English speakers. It is incredibly inefficient & ineffective, and there are definitely not enough ESL teachers qualified to teach the high school curriculum (as I’ve said) in my State. I’m fully for singling out the nonfluent h.school students for intensive English learning, but so far the State refuses to address this issue & continues to Look the Other Way.</p>
<p>Excuse me, could someone please explain to me what does “illegal” mean? If I were pulled over by a police because I did an “illegal” U turn, could I tell police the road is there inviting to me do the U turn?</p>
<p>“Latino immigrants are not necessarily as motivated.”</p>
<p>Maybe so, but we’ve got bilingual education going on in a lot of other languages besides Spanish. There are programs in big cities in Haitian Creole, African languages, Asian languages, etc.</p>
<p>“English is literally the foreign language, and where the dominant language of conversation on the street is Spanish.”</p>
<p>That’s true, but it can’t be the source of the problem. In the biggest Chinatowns of this country (and Canada), you’re equally handicapped trying to do your shopping in English rather than Chinese. But the kids in those neighborhoods, if they arrived in the US before age 10 and they’ve been here for more than a year, speak English. All of them – and this despite bilingual education.</p>
<p>“Language learning is most efficiently done quite early, and this is the entire problem with loading it into the high school years in <em>mainstreamed</em> classrooms which include English speakers”</p>
<p>Well, kids who arrive in this country during the high school years need ESL instruction. I don’t think there’s any debate about that. But why would kids who arrived at age 5 need ESL instruction in high school? If they were mainstreamed from day one, I don’t think they would. Maybe I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make.</p>
<p>QUOTE: “But why would kids who arrived at age 5 need ESL instruction in high school? If they were mainstreamed from day one, I don’t think they would.”</p>
<p>They don’t. It’s the ones who arrive in, say, even elementary school. Neither they nor their parents “immerse” themselves in an Anglo neighborhood or with Anglo associates. They live & operate & are schooled in heavily Latino neighborhoods. They do not have the expectations (overall) that the Chinese have. (And agreed, go to any Chinatown; an English-speaker may find himself in the minority.) By the time these elem. school incomers are in high school, their English comprehension levels have made very little progress in 4-8 years. Yet the curriculum demands fluency, which they do not have. The volume of high school curriculum to be covered is considerable, and will not be covered simultanous with the time required for English remediation – unless the family is motivated to cooperate, to support the extra time for such, etc. </p>
<p>I have two families that I teach that are such exceptions that they are the standout loners among their culture. Both parents are immigrants, but fluent. Their child is bilingual. They are the perfect example of the idealized “melting pot” families, able to maintain their cultural ties but with full expectation that their children will assimilate into a predominantly English-speaking culture. (Both English & Spanish are spoken in the home.) My take on the Chinese is similar. Doesn’t matter, really, how well the parents do or do not learn English – & those goals & needs vary by family. But there’s no question what the parents expect of the children. This is not the majority attitude of Latinos whose children are currently in our publc site schools. In fact, the two exceptions I highlight are families who have <em>removed</em> their children from public site schools because the language learning & other core learning is simply not happening, due to everything I’ve mentioned. </p>
<p>I know you mean well, but your examples do not match current circumstances in different population mixes and with different cultural expectations.</p>
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On a lighter note - I’ve tried using similar excuses a few times (“but officer, the freeway is straight, wide, and downhill and my car won’t go that slow without riding the brakes”). It’s never worked so far. :(</p>
<p>There are no set rules about “catching” illegal residents at colleges. It is not the colleges’ mission to do so, and no law requiring them to do so. In my opinion, all students who apply to state colleges should go through the same screening system that is set up to determine state residency. If an illegal student gets through that screen, fine for him. There are often kids who are not truly state residents (or from families that are not residents of a particular state) who can legitamately get through the residency screening as well through some loophole or technicality. So it should be for illegal residents. </p>
<p>There are rules about govt money for illegals, and that is a whole different story. As to the college’s private funds, I see no problem letting illegal residents having access to them as long as there are no state/federal stipulation that do not permit it. </p>
<p>The Immigration bureau, our country as a whole , are not doing a good job in consistently applying and enforcing laws regarding illegals. It is not the place of the college to start coming up with its own policies about this chaos. Colleges should certainly obey the law, but not try to step out and make new ones, particularly in an area as mired in muck as this.</p>
<p>laserbrother, I’m happy to explain: “Illegal” means failing to report and pay taxes on every penny of your income, or taking a deduction that’s not 100% legit. Failing to do that means you haven’t done your duty as a person who enjoys the nation’s protections, and you therefore will be immediately deported to a country of our choice. Is that clear now?</p>
<p>Voting for a politician who promises to cut your taxes below the level needed to balance the national budget, requiring forced appropriation of future generation’s income to pay the debt is a lesser offense. We’re still working on the penalty for that one…</p>
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<p>Disagree. Especially universities that receive federal funding. They are set up and funded for Americans and legitimate foreign students. I see a lot of problem with using that public fund to pay for non-intended recipients. It is not wrong for universities to ensure public fund is used wisely. They are not enforcing new immigration laws but enforce how the school budget should be applied.</p>
<p>From the Dallas Morning News, Mexican immigrants sent back a record $23 billion dollars last year: </p>
<p>"The amount of money that Mexican immigrants sent back to their homeland hit a record $23 billion in 2006 – suggesting a greater number of workers are sending more money home.</p>
<p>Immigration experts attributed last year’s 15 percent rise to multiple factors, including increased migration, more generosity by immigrants and cheaper sending costs.</p>
<p>It was the fifth straight year that remittances have risen between 15 and 25 percent.</p>
<p>Some experts even cited deportation fears as a reason for the spikes.</p>
<p>“They used to spend more money here, but now they are saving every penny here and sending it down there,” said Socorro Perales, a naturalized citizen who lives in Dallas and works among immigrants from the central Mexican state of Guanajuato…</p>
<p>State legislatures in Arizona and Texas have proposed taxing the money to pay for such social services as health care and education."</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/020107dntexremesas.1c55baa.html[/url]”>http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/020107dntexremesas.1c55baa.html</a></p>
<p>They’re still doing all the scut work that Americans don’t want to do, so I don’t quite understand the problem.</p>
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<p>I have noticed a dearth of traditional, part-time jobs available to my teens. I have concluded that this may be attributable to the huge illegal immigrant population here in CA. Has anyone else experienced this?</p>
<p>Jobs such as mowing lawns, working at fast-food restaurants, delivering papers and even babysitting are literally non-existent in our area. All of those jobs seem to be filled by Mexican immigrants.</p>
<p>So in our case, I’m not sure they are doing jobs Americans won’t do, or if they are actually taking away opportunities from Americans.</p>
<p>“They’re still doing all the scut work that Americans don’t want to do, so I don’t quite understand the problem.”</p>
<p>Make these jobs better-paying, give benefits and follow safety standards, and you may be surprised at how many Americans are willing to do them. Now that means decreasing profits for the companies that employ illegals, so this really isn’t going to happen. The middle class is going to get more and more squeezed as we support the educational and medical needs of the illegals. And they are sending a lot of money ($23 billion last year) out of the country that otherwise could fuel our service-driven economy. Basically the rich get richer.</p>
<p>mini: where are you? tell them about the apple pickers.</p>