<p>Because these students have shown they have talent - and probably because the schools need students to fill in for those who transferred or dropped out. Have you ever had a conversation with someone who has transferred in from such a situation? I’ve had a fair number over the past decade. None have said the courses (overall - perhaps there would have been one or two) were equivalent - not one student. They may have liked their classes at the cc (or elsewhere) esp when they are smaller classes, but they’ll still freely admit the courses didn’t go into as much depth and they had to “step it up a notch” at the new school. These students were capable of doing so and enjoyed the challenge. Some regretted not going to a top school from the beginning, but for most it was a financial situation. For a few who did some of the “tougher” majors (Engineering comes to mind) there were a few math issues due to courses not being as tough, so less of a foundation, but the students were still able to overcome it by stepping things up (and usually tutoring).</p>
<p>Top schools take transfers (usually), but they screen them to find those who they feel have the talent to step up. They don’t take all who apply. Some state flagships may differ.</p>
<p>But the problem with that comparison is that students are being asked to compare the difficulty of one school based on lower division courses with another based n experiences in upper level classes.</p>
<p>Have you ever had a conversation with someone who has transferred in from such a situation?</p>
<p>Yes actually. Both those scenarios represent actual people that I have known personally for years & have graduated from college in the past ten yrs.
( Both began community college courses in high school, and were still only 18/19, when they entered as juniors in their specific colleges.)
I don’t generally pull hypothetical scenarios out of my butt to make a point, even if that is a common practice on message boards. ;)</p>
<p>My daughter graduated from Reed College, well known for its rigor. She also took courses at a community college during the summers towards her biology degree. ( in areas Reed didn’t offer). Her diploma looks the same as everyone elses.</p>
<p>Anyway, its clear that someone taking a required course in the sciences, should expect rigor whether they are at a school with 15% admittance or 51%.
Its pretty hilarious to me that apparently the student is at a school that his family thought was * beneath him*, & now they are furious when they find out that is not the case!</p>
<p>I’ve been toying with giving specific examples or not and decided I would… but only a couple or I could go on and on if I related experiences told to me. Instead, I’ll stick with my own guys (less hearsay that way too). </p>
<p>My youngest (high school junior) took our cc Bio 101 class and did well - then sat in on middle son’s (Top 30 school) Bio 101 class. When I asked him to compare he said that in his class they were told “There’s ‘an’ enzyme that speeds up the process…” The Top 30 class was going over what (multiple) enzymes were and exactly what they did in the process. (Same topic.) He called the cc class “Bio lite.”</p>
<p>Does one need to know the specifics for most jobs or even med school? Not really. But to say there’s no difference is ludicrous.</p>
<p>The prof of the cc class liked to tell his students that his class was the same one they’d get if they went to any college in the country from directional U to Yale since “a cell is just a cell.” I showed him the very first test middle son had. It took him 10 - 15 seconds to look it over and admit he didn’t know some of the (in depth) material on it. It truly surprised him that these things would be in a Bio 101 class and not grad school. He no longer tells his students it’s the same class everywhere. He tells them (more accurately) that it’s the same class at many “basic” colleges and will prepare them if they want a higher level school.</p>
<p>Find the school to fit the student. Those who aren’t so intellectually curious won’t need the in depth and can still do well in life. Those who thrive on it or want to go into in depth research or other such things will prefer the more in depth classes. Many larger schools even offer two different types of classes for the same credit - an in depth version for majors or those wanting more of a challenge and a basic class for everyone else. Smaller schools may not do this.</p>
<p>To say all the classes with the same title are the same is 100% false.</p>
<p>To say all colleges can prepare someone for success in life is probably 100% true, but the content can vary. Most jobs do not need “in depth.”</p>
<p>Not really. They’re comparing how prepared they felt for a class to how prepared they felt their peers were. They still had peers and were in study groups.</p>
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</p>
<p>Why would it look different? I’m confused. I thought we were comparing Class 101 to Class 101.</p>
<p>Why would it look different? I’m confused. I thought we were comparing Class 101 to Class 101.</p>
<p>Precisely.
The course offered at the community college meets the standards of Reed College.
No need to add a sticker that says " only 3/4 of courses were taken @ Reed".</p>
<p>To the original question…should they be easier?, no I don’t think so. However, the reality is that there are differences between schools, whether it’s high school, college, etc. If there were no difference, why do we hear so many people talking about stretching their budget to live in the “good school district?” There are differences (beyond the social, I think) between “good suburban school district”, “average suburban school district”, and “inner city school district with a 50% dropout rate.” They all teach math, but I would suspect it’s not the same at each school. I have one kid who attended a competitive private for part of high school. The difference between that school and her previous school were striking. For example, extensive writing and research papers in many classes. Tests with short answers and essay questions instead of all tests multiple choice on a scantron. Spanish oral presentation at old school would be 3 sentences. At new school 3 minutes. So I don’t believe that math is math or spanish is spanish, etc. There can be real differences in expectations, assignments, tests, etc.</p>
<p>I think there are differences between colleges as well. I would suspect that calculus at MIT or Caltech is probably more difficult than calculus at a community college or even at some non tech peer schools. However, I’ve never seen the syallabus for both courses, never talked to anyone who transferred from a CC to caltech, so I don’t know for sure.</p>
<p>The only personal comparison I can make is one of my kids took two dual credit introductory courses at a community college and took the equivalent courses at an “elite” college. One he said was totally useless. The other he said what they covered in a semester at CC took 3 weeks at elite school. Doesn’t mean that all CC classes are bad, but I don’t think we can say that classes are equivalent no matter where you take them.</p>
<p>Maybe the student in the OP is not cut out for engineering or maybe he has a bad professor. Sounds like he needs to talk to the professor or TA and possibly get some tutoring.</p>
<p>^^^ But no one was saying that wouldn’t be the case. That’s what’s confusing.</p>
<p>The discussion (as I see it) is whether classes at Directional (or lower tiered) Us are the same as those at top places - and whether they should be different or not.</p>
<p>I believe from my experience they generally are different (less in depth) and should be to fit the average student who chooses to go there. I don’t disagree that higher academic students may choose Directional U (esp due to finances), but the average incoming student is not at the same academic level as the average at Top U.</p>
<p>Directional U needs to keep the difficulty needed to prepare students for their future jobs (nursing or whatever). They shouldn’t be diploma mills. But, they also don’t have to be in depth research Us.</p>
<p>If any Top U opts to accept a credit from a lower level school they can. Who cares? That doesn’t mean the course content is identical for each class. It only means that Top U was ok with what was provided. In your specific example you even said Top U didn’t offer the course(s) your D took… so there IS no comparison in content.</p>
<p>If there’s no difference in content - why should we be aiming top kids for top schools (on need based aid or otherwise)? MIT vs Slippery Rock? No difference? Sorry, I disagree. You’re welcome to your thoughts.</p>
<p>MIT is good for the right student.</p>
<p>Slippery Rock is good for the right student.</p>
<p>Both students have good prospects for a successful life.</p>
<p>But the course content in basic classes is not likely to be the same.</p>
<p>Not quite true. While subjects like math have higher minimum standards than other subjects, there can still be considerable variation in difficulty between schools and instructors for what is nominally the same course.</p>
<p>With respect to the situation described by the OP, the minimum standards for engineering and engineering technology need to meet ABET accreditation standards. These majors are not going to be the “gut” majors at any school. At the “top” schools, the courses may include additional material, or run at a faster pace, but even the least selective schools need to meet a relatively high minimum standard for these majors.</p>
<p>MIT’s calculus courses are accelerated, with three semesters’ of material packed into two semesters. Caltech’s calculus courses are like MIT’s “calculus with theory” courses.</p>
<p>However, some community colleges’ calculus courses emulate those of the nearby state flagship university, so they may be more rigorous than those of low selectivity four year schools.</p>
And you are basing that judgment on the fact that he suggested that some people should drop the course, without any further discussion with him regarding the status of the entire class? I think that’s probably an unfair leap. There may very well be people who should drop. Not necessarily change majors, but it’s not unusual for students to have to drop back and regroup wrt a particular course.</p>
<p>I’ve known many people who transferred up and a few who transferred down. While the differences aren’t as dramatic as some elite-u or bust folks make it appear…that doesn’t mean there are no differences.</p>
<p>Some differences I kept hearing about are differences in rigor, pacing, quantity of work, and expectations from the instructor. The ones at the elite/respectable schools tend to be, on average, greater than lower ranked institutions such as state directional Us or similar type private colleges targeting students with a wider spectrum of academic capabilities. </p>
<p>Sometimes, there are even differences between academically similar institutions. For instance, many classmates at Reed, MIT and Swat had syllabi showing a far greater quantity of workload expectations compared with that of comparable classes at my own LAC(Oberlin). </p>
<ul>
<li>Not saying Oberlin was easy. More like the difference between hard at times, but manageable and overwhelmingly insane.</li>
</ul>
<p>Personally, I think it is great that a prof suggests some should drop, he is being honest.</p>
<p>My daughter, was having a really hard time in a non required course. She was struggling all around and this course just made it that much worse.
She went to the prof to ask for permission to drop and he talked her out of it ( even though it was one of the most failed classes on campus according to student newspaper)
She failed it.
I imagine profs get read the riot act from their employer if students don’t finish the class, but some classes should have perhaps another pre-req, instead of flunking 1/3.</p>
You are WAY overestimating the situation there. Everyone expects that some students will drop out or fail, particularly in difficult courses. Personally, I have dropped a number of courses in my academic career. As a professor, I’ve had students drop. No one has a problem with some expected drops. </p>
<p>If a significant percentage of the class were to start dropping like flies, that might catch the attention of the department chair, but otherwise, no. As for your D, the professor might genuinely have felt that she could handle it, so tried to talk her out of leaving.</p>
<p>I have taught at an Ivy, a well respected LAC, a less respected LAC and a directional state university, albeit not in a program with external examination requirements. What I bring to the table is fairly consistent; the background and general knowledge presented by the students is widely variable at each.</p>
<p>Perhaps we should be leaving a few children behind?</p>
<p>Admittedly I exagerated. But when a prof is routinely written up for a stiff curve and not wanting to change the course or admittance to the course in any way, & when in the article he seems to have contempt for his student by implying he was doing them a favor by failing them - I hope that someone does stand up for the best interests of the student body.</p>
<p>It was a logic course & it required a lower level of math than logic courses usually do for admittance. However in practice, the course should have required the next math course for registration.</p>
<p>I took German 1 at Harvard and years later took German 1 for a review prior to going to Germany at a CC. They weren’t the same. They actually covered pretty much the same grammar. The CC class had vocabulary more geared toward being a tourist (which I liked), while the Harvard class had us reading a novel by the end of the second semester in addition to the regular grammar, so we ended up with much more vocabulary, though not necessarily so useful for going to a restaurant or getting a hotel room. The CC class just stuck to the text book.</p>
<p>A college classmate who took Mandarin Chinese at both our LAC and a directional state U near his hometown had the following observations.</p>
<p>Both used the same textbooks. However, the pacing was very different. </p>
<p>What’s covered in one year at our LAC ended up being covered in 2 at his directional state U. A major reason why our LAC strongly dissuaded him from taking the language courses in the summer if his intention was to enable himself to leapfrog to 3rd year Mandarin Chinese from 1st year.</p>
<p>^You could have the same problem with Arabic at Tufts. They seem to cover much more in a semester than anyone else. Luckily they also assume everyone will spend time abroad junior year studying in different programs so they are a little more flexible senior year. That said even though my son was in an immersion program in the fall, it covered less grammar than the Tufts course did over the same period of time. However my son learned much more vocabulary and got much more comfortable since he spoke Arabic 24/7.</p>
