<p>Should high schools publish tables for each courses showing how students who earned each letter grade did on corresponding SAT subject and (for AP courses) AP tests on average?</p>
<p>For example, a table might look like this (high school course grade, average SAT subject score, average AP score):</p>
<p>US history:
A 700
B 580
C 480</p>
<p>AP US history
A 750 4.7
B 650 3.8
C 520 2.7</p>
<p>In the example above, students getting A grades in regular US history who took the SAT subject test averaged 700, while those getting B grades averaged 580, and those getting C grades averaged 480. For the AP US history course, the A students averaged 750 on the SAT subject test and 4.7 on the AP test, while the B students averaged 650 and 3.8 and the C students averaged 520 and 2.7.</p>
<p>That could make it more obvious whether a given high school’s courses really include what is normally expected in college-prep courses. If the A students are barely breaking 500 on the SAT subject tests, and A students in AP courses average 2.8 or so on the AP tests, that is not a good sign.</p>
<p>Are there really enough students taking SAT II tests in each subject to make that kind of data meaningful? Seemingly unless a fairly high percentage of the class takes the test it won’t provide a meaningful representation of the class’ abilities as students are more likely to take a SAT II in a subject they are good at. I think the case for providing data on AP scores is more stronger though.</p>
<p>What’s the real life use of the data? Adcoms will see the data a kid presents. And have access to other details that represent a school’s challenge level and follow through. Many high schools are already tracking this, just not making it available to the general public. Many hs include the gpa range and standardized test ranges in their profiles.</p>
<p>I’d rather see high schools spending their resources on instruction than data collection and publication. At my D’s high school, few students take the SAT II’s and I’m not sure that most have the scores sent to the HS. As for AP’s, I can see from the school profile how many 5’s, 4’s, 3’s, etc. there are on AP tests in general (though not the corresponding grades or individual class results) and make a determination as to whether AP courses are well taught. Presumably adcoms could do the same. I can also ask individual teachers how their classes fare (though adcoms can’t do this).</p>
<p>This may make sense for AP courses and AP tests (although there could be a confidentiality issue if only a small number of students take the course and test). </p>
<p>However, I don’t think it makes sense for SAT Subject Tests. In many instances, high school courses are not designed with these tests in mind. The people who put together the curriculum have other priorities – such as state graduation requirements. Low scores on the SAT Subject Test may simply represent a mismatch between the test and the curriculum – a mismatch that, for whatever reason, the school system does not intend to correct.</p>
<p>Only at private schools where all the children are above average anyway. </p>
<p>Seriously? In my neck of the woods, the only private schools are parochial, mostly Catholic. The public schools are much more invested in making sure a high percentage of kids graduate with skills necessary to work, continue with vo-tech training (we have half day tracks in construction, auto mechanics, CNA/surgical tech, etc) and yes, go to college. Knowing that Billy’s A in history might translate into a 700 on the SAT II is the type of naval-gazing a big urban or small rural district just can’t afford.</p>
<p>I suspect that one of the reasons behind ucbalumnus’s post was to answer the age-old question, “Is a B in an AP course really worth as much as an A in a regular college-prep course?” In that regard, I think the data would actually be kind of interesting. But I doubt that schools would generate the data unless they come out well <em>and</em> they have spare staff time. Hardly any schools have both. </p>
<p>Also, CB does not tabulate results in its state-by-state statistical reports, if the number of test-takers in a category is smaller than 5. This could lead to a lot of asterisks in the report, if one were generated. </p>
<p>Quite a few students take large-ish numbers of AP exams, which often makes sense. But personally, I have always thought that taking more than 3 SAT II exams was grandstanding, though this seems to be a more common practice now. This would generally mean that not everyone who took any given AP exam also took the SAT II most closely related to that area, and that would skew the data.</p>
<p>This happens not just because kids need fewer SAT Subject Tests but also because there’s no point in taking an SAT Subject Test in a subject that you studied in your senior year.</p>
<p>For example, the AP US History course provides excellent preparation for the SAT Subject Test in US History, but if you take it in 12th grade, you’re not going to take that Subject Test. But the 11th graders in your class might.</p>
<p>Marian makes a good point in #8. The specifics depend a bit on the school’s curricular structure–not only on the year when the students tend to take any specific AP course, but also what the pre-AP courses are like, and whether students could take an SAT II in an area before taking the AP course. </p>
<p>At the local high school, a lot of the students take AP US History in 11th grade. The pre-AP history course stops coverage by 1900, which means that taking the SAT II after pre-AP would be a mistake. On the other hand, students can take the SAT II Math Level II and score very well, with just a pre-calculus background. Chemistry and physics are both examples where a student could score 800 on the SAT II on the basis of a good pre-AP course. Such courses are pretty rare in practice, though.</p>
<p>To expose high schools which have high grade inflation or which do not cover as much in their courses as they are expected to cover, giving them more of an incentive to improve. Sure, a high school can offer a full slate of AP courses, but if the average AP score for A students in the AP courses is 2.5, then students and parents are warned that those AP courses are worth very little.</p>
<p>How rare? Back when I was in high school, there was only a regular physics course (no honors or AP version; the physics course used the PSSC book and curriculum). Getting a mid-700s score on the physics achievement test (as the SAT subject test was then called) without test-specific studying was not hard.</p>
<p>On the other hand, if the physics courses at most high schools are so poor that A students struggle to get 500 scores on the SAT subject tests, then the common claim that one should take the AP course before taking the SAT subject test makes more sense.</p>
<p>Re ucbalumnus #11: A course based on the PSSC physics text with a teacher who actually understands physics is a life-long gift! But I think this is very rare in practice.</p>
<p>Re your post #10: Are you thinking of using the data to choose among high schools, for your children? Or to prod a school they already attend?</p>
<p>I got the impression that PSSC physics was fairly common from the 1960s to 1980s. Has the quality of high school physics instruction regressed since then?</p>
<p>A lot of this sort of data is compiled by the CB and sold to colleges. Colleges can buy a data set for an individual high school. Colleges sometimes do this when they get an application from an unknown high school.</p>
<p>I would have been interested to see this, but I’m a numbers person, but I don’t think it’s necessary and I think it could be subject to misinterpretation. I do wish our school published the number of people getting 5s and 4s in the various APs they offer. The teachers usually give you a general idea at Meet the Teacher night if they are veterans, but they could be lying through their teeth. </p>
<p>The only data our school puts in the school profile is the average for about a dozen SAT subject tests (amusingly the highest score is for physics, a self selective group and probably doesn’t reflect that much on the teachers.) They publish the number of AP scholars, and whatever other level of AP honors there are, but not the range of scores for each test.</p>
<p>Amusingly my son was in a pilot class of sophomores taking the AP World test. He got on the wrong side of the teacher by the end of they year who told him before the test he predicted he’d get a 1 or 2. Imagine the gloating that went on when my son got a 5! And many of the teacher pet kids did rather poorly.</p>
<p>There are many ways to determine if a school is low performing, despite a kid’s grades. In addition to grade and score distribution, which may appear in the profile, and the number who graduate, on the GC form it asks % off to 2 and 4 year institutions. Many hs have community SES and other detail published on the web by those communities or oversight groups. Adcoms, ime, know much detail about their areas- and the kid’s rigor, grades and scores usually appear on the CA. At least, my experience. If he got an A and a 3, it’s not just about the hs, but about that candidate.</p>