Should I apply early: Harvard SCEA vs Columbia ED

Colleges & Universities Harvard University
1

<p>Hi all,</p>

<p>Obviously, I am working on essays but I would appreciate any insight you guys may have on this topic. I want to visit, but I likely will not be able to stay long enough to visit both Columbia and Harvard. As such, I would greatly appreciate your advice. I know some people will say apply RD to all, but I really do not want to stay in my home country for undergrad. At the same time, I cannot possibly justify asking my family to pay absurd amounts of money for a university they do not like. </p>

<p>I am an international student hopefully with a Canadian citizenship by my time of application. As such, I have plenty of ‘safeties’ within my home country that I may not love, but that I deem acceptable. I also intend on applying to Cambridge. Cost is not a deciding factor here. </p>

<p>SAT1: 770 Math, 770 Writing, 800 CR
SAT2: Will be taking - recent decision to apply US
GPA: 93+ (waiting on a few standardized tests) - in an school with selective admissions and enriched curriculum
Rank: Likely very good.
Courseload: Most rigorous schedule. Have completed Calc BC as a sophomore, independent studies in mathematics (with credit and a final project) for the next two years. I have exhausted the English curriculum- 4 levels in 2 years and am also completing an independent study on religion (the school is secular).</p>

<p>ECs:

  • Research (20+ hours in school year, 40+ during the summer). Done in a specialized field - I have made some advances. While an experimental paper is feasible, it will take too long to go through review. I may try and publish some reviews in undergrad journals. (Have worked in various fields for the past 3 years)
  • Editor of an internationally recognized Youth Science Journal. We work with the National Research Press and publish student research twice a year.
  • Hosting a science education event for the aforementioned organization, where I will have students attend seminars by researchers, a Q and A panel and hands on activities.
  • member of the Minister of Education’s student advisory council: I advise the minister on education, meeting with him for 4 weekends and help organize workshops and a final conference for students in the province.
  • Youth Advisory Council for the Breast Cancer Foundation
  • President of the High School science club
  • Associate Member of Sigma Xi Research Society as a high school student
  • Started a company unofficially - will not get anywhere by the time apps are due. I am also in the process of writing a book on science education (again, unlikely to be done by EA/ED round).</p>

<p>–Non science–

  • Writer for a Youth Think Tank
  • Leader of Model UN club within school; I taught Model UN to students in a class.
  • Debater (less so this year, but qualified for Provincials)</p>

<p>Awards: One of 18 selected to represent country in an international competition (2013), Best in Category for Sigma Xi Online Research Showcase, 2nd in Regional Fair (biggest in country), top 20 (silver medal) for research (2012), various smaller awards for science. Participant in a provincially competitive program for research - gave me 6 weeks of funding. I also used to live in the US and won state awards for writing and business (FBLA - 2nd place, 4th place). Some MUN and speech awards as well. </p>

<p>Other: Difficult family situation - parents were originally living apart, then we had to move to the new country. Some deaths, job losses, so overall very hectic. (The counselor knows). There were 2 B+s frosh year in the US as a result of those circumstances, but overall HS has been crazy.</p>

<p>Last words: Personality wise, I am tightly wound and intense. I obviously love science but I want to have a broad education and know a lot about everything. I like to debate ethics and political science. Harvard has always been a dream but the country I hail from has many top - notch applicants, some of who have had more stable circumstances and been able to win some more awards/get more press. Career wise- I am very ambitious and would like to run a company, work with NGOs/the UN and also be a clinician scientist.</p>

2

<p>Other than competing in the same sports league, Harvard and Columbia are pretty dissimilar. Columbia prides itself on their “Core Curriculum” where every student regardless of major or interest MUST take the same basic set of core courses during their freshman and sophomore years: Contemporary Civilization, Literature Humanities, University Writing, Art Humanities, Music Humanities, and Frontiers of Science. It’s kind of like high school – you cannot graduate without taking those specific courses. Columbia’s educational philosophy is that the core provides every Columbia student with a commonality – alumni from the 1920’s through last year’s graduating class have taken the same basic set of courses. See: [The</a> Core Curriculum](<a href=“http://www.college.columbia.edu/core/]The”>The Core Curriculum). Harvard, on the other hand, has general education requirements that need to be completed in order to graduate, but students can take any number of courses to fulfil the requirements. See: [Homepage</a> § Program in General Education](<a href=“http://www.generaleducation.fas.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do]Homepage”>http://www.generaleducation.fas.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do). Students that love Harvard usually hate Columbia because it’s too rigid. Students that love Columbia tend not to like Harvard because it offers them too many choices. Once you have done your due-diligence on both schools, I think you will instinctually know which school is your first choice.</p>

3

<p>To be honest, I think I prefer Harvard’s set of reqs because as you said, for the flexibility. I want to study visual arts and music (both parts of the Columbia curriculum) but I am unsure whether I’d like to do it as a formal course. Columbia has access to NYC - I think that can potentially be a positive, as I do want to volunteer and meet a diverse bunch of people. However, I think it is less safe. I have heard cognitive neuroscience program at Columbia is very good. At the same time, I really enjoyed some of the Harvards ethics lectures on youtube. Prof. Sandel is an amazing lecturer. </p>

<p>I have had not much choice in high school and without visiting, its hard for me to tell which I really prefer. I really want an engaged and ambitious student body that I can relate to. I am somewhat scared of NYC and Boston seems like a way better college town.</p>

<p>However, an individual who has worked with other applicants has told me I have no chance at Harvard and I would be better off applying ED to a top American school. While I know people frown on this practice, I really don’t want to stay in my home country for undergrad - all the universities are huge and public and it’s quite preprofessional/commuter. As such, if I have low chances at my preferred school, I might as well focus my efforts on other options.</p>

<p>I guess what I’m asking is - if you were me, what would you do? I don’t know what to think. My parents might let me visit but I have a busy schedule and will probably be able to only visit one, if I can go at all.</p>

4

<p>“If you were me, what would you do?”</p>

<p>Why are you asking internet strangers this question? Every person you ask will give you a different answer. It is a very subjective choice that ONLY YOU CAN MAKE! If you don’t know, ask your teachers, parents, guidance counselor, girl friend, boy friend, grandparent – someone who knows you, as everyone else is bringing their baggage to the table with absolutely no understanding of who you are, where you’ve been and where you want to go. This is part of the college applications process – you have to learn to think and make decisions for yourself.</p>

5

<p>FWIW: Last year:</p>

<p>Columbia ED: 19.19% acceptance rate
Harvard SCEA: 18.43% acceptance rate</p>

<p>Both schools probably recruit the maximum number of athletes allowed by the Ivy League in early admissions (230), so real acceptance rates for both schools are probably equal and below 10%. You should apply early to the school you like the most, as everyone’s chances at both schools are long.</p>

6

<p>Keep in mind that in terms of process, Columbia is an Early Decision school, Harvard is a Single Choice Early Action school. If you’re admitted to Columbia under ED, you are pretty much obligated to withdraw your applications to all other schools where you’ve applied and to accept Columbia’s offer. Without having the opportunity to know where else you would have been accepted or what sort of financial aid and/or scholarships you would have been offered.</p>

<p>With Harvard, although there are limitations on where else you can apply early (I believe you’re permitted to apply early to state schools in your home state, although I don’t know whether or how that carries over to folks in Canada), if you’re admitted early, you may wait to see who else accepts you and what they offer.</p>

<p>Most folks advise, and I think it’s good advice, not to apply ED unless you’re REALLY SURE that’s where you want to go.</p>

7

<p>^^ Money is not an issue for the OP. Per post #1 “Cost is not a deciding factor here.”</p>

8

<p>If cost is truly off the table, that eliminates one factor. However, in the case of my older son, I was taken aback by the difference in financial aid packages between his top choice - Hopkins - and pretty much everyone else. What I thought would be a modest difference became a yawning chasm, and in the final analysis, knocked Hopkins out of contention. But a yawning chasm to some might be hardly a crack in the sidewalk for others.</p>

<p>However, if cost really doesn’t enter into the decision at all, then the other issue remains - if you apply ED somewhere, you really need to be certain that that’s the place where you really want to go, because, if accepted, you won’t even get the chance to see where else you might have been accepted.</p>

9

<p>Is it not better to get in at one’s second choice school ED than apply SCEA to your dream and get rejected though? People have told me that students from my region have a shot at Columbia ED but little at SCEA to HPY.</p>

10

<p>“People have told me that students from my region have a shot at Columbia ED but little at SCEA to HPY.”</p>

<p>Truth be told, as an international student, it’s going to be extremely difficult for you to get into Harvard or Columbia. Both colleges are ultra selective and have soft-quotas for international students, which hover around 10-11%. Let’s take Harvard, for example. Harvard has approximately 1660 beds and if 11% of them are filled with international students that means that you are competing for one of 182 beds. Given those odds, why should Harvard select you over thousands of other international students from China, Japan, France, Germany, Russia, Australia and Canada? Ditto with Columbia. You see what you are up against? If you are going to apply ED or SCEA, you should apply to the college that you like the most, as your chances of being accepted to either Harvard or Columbia are very slim, no matter what your stats.</p>

<p>Ivy league schools are a reach for everyone – that’s true in the SCEA, ED or RD round. So if your looking for the brass ring of an Ivy League school, where 94% of students are rejected, by all means apply to Columbia where your people say it’s easier to get in. But, if your goal is to go to a US College, you should be looking beyond the ivies at schools that have much better acceptance rates. There are great US colleges that have 25% to 35% acceptance rates. Look on page 3, 4 and 5 of this list: <a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/lowest-acceptance-rate/page+3[/url]”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/lowest-acceptance-rate/page+3&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

11

<p>Agree with ^. Your stats are phenomenal and you sound like a great candidate. It’s just that the odds are poor. So go with the one your gut tells you to…but keep a working list of other schools going in case it doesn’t work out.</p>

12

<p>I actually faced a similar dilemma, unknown. Last year, I was torn between applying for my dream school (Harvard) SCEA and applying ED to a less preferable school (Columbia) where I would have a <em>slightly</em> better chance of getting in. I say that because the year before this past one, the ED acceptance rate was about 25% I think and more than half the class was accepted in the ED round. I spent all of last summer and into October thinking really hard about this. Eventually, I figured that I would shoot for my dream school and take the risk. I would have forever regretted never taking the chance to apply SCEA (where the acceptance rate is somewhat higher than RD) and would have forever wondered what the outcome would have been had I applied SCEA. </p>

<p>FYI: I was accepted to Harvard SCEA and will be attending in the fall.</p>

13

<p>That is true^^. My parents will not, however, pay money for schools they do not regard as highly. My parents have a relatively high EFC (taxes are high here too, though) and with the 200 grand university costs here, I could do undergrad and medical school with 100ishk to spare. I could try for merit scholarships, but those are competitive most places I’m interested in and the cost would still be more.</p>

<p>@NY94- glad to know I’m not the only one. I’m leaning that way myself; all I can really do now is try my best :)</p>

14

<p>I just realized that the prof I’m working with now actually sent a student to H in 2010, so maybe regional adcoms are familiar with him. I talked about it with my parents and I’m leaning SCEA. I know students are definitely accepted from my region but beyond that, I have little insight into the workings of admissions here. I may as well try my best and leave the rest to God.</p>

<p>(That is one other factor important to me - I’d like to be able to participate in religious services/discussion groups often. I am ‘Hindu’, for lack of a better term. However, I imagine both areas have a number of temples et al.)</p>