Hey all. I’m a rising senior and am having a really tough time deciding between these two schools. Since I’m getting recruited for Track at both schools, I have to make a decision about which school I want to attend within the next few weeks. Ideally, I would want to double major in English and Psychology. Any tips on how to make the best decision?
I love Penn because of the Kelly Writer’s House, the positive psychology center, the isolated campus, the track team (and penn relays), and emphasis on interdisciplinary study. I’m a little concerned with the large size of the university and the mixed reviews on campus culture. While it’s known as the social Ivy, I’ve heard from a lot of sources that it can be a pressure cooker and mental health is a big issue there.
I love Williams because of it’s intimate Liberal Arts approach to education, beautiful location (I love nature), D3 track team (though I do wish it was D1), and overall campus community. Everyone there seemed really friendly, and it’s definitely a place where I could see myself flourish.
I love both places and understand that no college is truly perfect so whichever one I choose I think I’ll find my place and happiness there. But it is a really hard decision to make, would love for some feedback especially from people that have attended the schools to help me make a decision. Thanks guys
I meant like it’s isolated from the city or at least it feels like that when you walk on Locust Ave. It feels like it’s own little island so you’re not constantly reminded you are in a city but you can easily walk out into Philly
There is such a big difference between the locations, that I think that might be a deciding factor one way or the other. Size too, though Penn offers ways to break it down.
Both are top notch academically of course.
I lived in Philly with Penn students, who lived off campus. Penn is definitely an urban university.
For nature, you could certainly get to parks or get out of the city.
I visit the Williams area frequently, go to MassMOCA and the Clark and stay in Williamstown. I sat in a cafe outside and loved the vibe. But very small town.
Williamstown is close to Vermont too.
If you love nature and like the small campus, I would choose Williams, but that’s me. I also love Philly!
Certainly need to go where you feel the most comfortable. But to me, it would be hard to turn down a chance to compete for Penn as the host school for the Penn relays. Not to mention the Big 5 and Ivy League championships!
The obvious location and geographic differences. Take your pick.
Curriculum differences: Penn has a core curriculum in that 7 area distribution requirements must be met by choosing exclusively from a limited list of courses i each area. One of these is foreign language which means demonstrating foreign language proficiency and which therefore can require anywhere from 1-4 courses unless you can place out of it without any courses. In contrast, Williams has distribution requirements but course selection is wide open to meet those requirements.
Special Academic Experiences: Williams has winter semester which sounded like a super fun learning opportunity to me when I did a formal visit there. Courses are specially designed for that 3-week term. Williams also has tutorials available which are rare at any college on this side of the Atlantic. I’m not aware of special learning opportunities at Penn, so that’s something for you to look at for this comparison.
Research university vs LAC: student:faculty ratios at the two colleges is similar, so I expect that faculty access is pretty similar. But when it comes to access to research, I expect that the priority at Penn goes to grad students first. To the extent that professors involve students in their research, the priority for student involvement at Williams will always go to undergrads.
The English departments at both schools are great. When I look at Psych courses offered at the 2 schools, the two departments feel very different to me. The Penn courses are mostly academic and traditional, probably great preparation for someone who wants to go on to a graduate program that does a Loy of research. The Williams course list is littered with topical courses, meaning ones more related to issues in society which would be of more general interest. They also have the courses that would prep their students for grad school. I’m not favoring one approach over the other, but I think that you as the student will probably find one or the other more appealing. Take a look and see for yourself.
English & Psych are 2 of the most popular majors at Williams, but not so much at Penn. However the College of A&S at Penn is 3 times the enrollment of that at Williams, so the number of English majors is about the same at the 2 schools while Psych, which is more popular at Penn than English is, has almost double the number of majors as at Williams. Shows the difference in size. English & Psych are more popular at Williams but in raw numbers, there are as many or more in this major at Penn.
Bottom line is that Penn is big (10,000 undergrads, 25,000 total) and it is urban. William is small (2100 total enrollment) and very rural.neither is better than the other, but they are definitely different even though both are top notch. No one can make this call for you.
I agree with almost everything in your post except the part regarding access to research opportunities for undergraduates.
Research opportunities for undergrads should be plentiful at Penn, but paid research opportunities probably are offered to graduate students first. Overall, opportunities for research as an undergraduate should be much more available at Penn than at any LAC.
Of course, any student at almost any college or university can arrange to do independent research. Not a problem at either Penn or Williams. But, depending upon the type of research, the resources should be far superior at Penn than at Williams College or at any LAC.
Because Williams College and the University of Pennsylvania are so different in most respects–including track–you must have a preference–especially if you think that Penn is isolated.
As a recruited Athlete you will have additional resources available for you in addition to the general student
Also from the PENN website
Health & Wellness Captains
The Penn Athletics Health & Wellness Captains are a newly formed group of student-athletes who share a passion for supporting the overall well-being of their peers. The Pottruck Center for Student-Athlete Success and Sports Performance have partnered to serve as mentors and guides for the Health & Wellness Captains as they offer peer-to-peer education, share resources and provide support for all student-athletes. Over 60+ student-athletes across 31 sports have self-identified as Health & Wellness Captains focusing a variety of topics including nutrition, mental health, academic support, career resources and beyond.
Im sure there are other programs as well
Williams should have similar programs for student athletes
Another consideration would be what it means in terms of day-to-day life, as a D1 vs. D3 athlete. We’ve heard D1 coaches say that their athletes can “pick 2” from among their sport, academics, and their social life and other D1 coaches describe that the sport is about a 40 hour a week “job” in season, with training, competing, travel, meetings etc. D3, especially at an elite academic school like Williams, is about the “scholar athlete” not the “athlete scholar.” Some D3 schools (I don’t know about Williams specifically) do not schedule class after about 4pm so that Varsity athletes (and students involved in other extra curriculars) don’t have to worry about, for ex., conflicts between labs and travel to an away meet. My own D3 athlete (not T&F) spent about 25-30 hours per week in season on his sport and 5-15 hours out of season. Particularly for T&F athletes who might be training and competing for fall, indoor and/or spring season, the time commitment between D1 and D3 could be significant.
No “wrong” choice here, just about finding the right fit! Congrats on two amazing opportunities!
What a wonderful choice to have! I’ve visited both Williamstown and Philadelphia and love each for different reasons. My kid was recruited by Williams but ultimately chose to attend Penn as a non-athlete. Williamstown is beautiful but lacking in cultural amenities compared to Philly. Philly is a vibrant, diverse city where one can find something different to do each day. I would think participating in the Penn Relays on your home track would be very special.
I understand what you mean about Penn being isolated. The “Penn Bubble” exists and it’s nice because it insulates students from the city but at any point you can experience all the city has to offer. Although campus is urban, it’s not really open to West Philly; Penn police and campus security insure that.
If you’re interested in research, then you can get involved as early as your first semester. Opportunities are plentiful and available through CURF (Center for Undergraduate Research and Fellowships) and PURM (Penn Undergraduate Research Mentoring Program).
I think you have a preference though and believe you should follow your heart on this one. You say that you’re a nature lover. Really consider whether you can thrive without easy access to nature. After two years in Philly, my outdoorsy kid is already looking to greener, rural pastures for grad school. The constant hum of a city can be maddening if you prefer tranquility. Best of luck to you.
I think the earlier posters did a wonderful job of differentiating the two colleges.
Just one thought on Williams. Our family has been very impressed by the English department but not so much by the psychology department. Take a look at the course catalog and see if it reflects your interests and your beliefs about what psychology is all about. Our family found that the most satisfying psychology courses were not in the psych department, but rather in the English and History departments (such as those taught by the wonderful History Professor Kohut— and yes, he is the son of famous psychologist Heinz Kohut!).
Williams is a special place, though. The two students/one prof tutorials are wonderful, and a good symbol of the attention that students receive at Williams. Even non-tutorials are usually small discussion-oriented classes. You will get to know your classmates and professors very well, and your skills of thinking and writing will develop fantastically. And almost all classes are amazing— if you read the reviews of the professors and courses (accessible to current Williams students only) before registration, you can ensure that you have four great classes every semester.
If you go to Williams, try to broaden your social connections in the fall by taking advantage of opportunities to interact with your freshman entrymates and Ephventures companions as well as with your teammates.
Good luck. You will get a fantastic education at either school. It really comes down to whether you prefer large or small, urban or rural, fraternities or no fraternities. You can’t go wrong here- it is just a matter of personal “fit.”
See if you can talk with some of the kids on the track teams at each school. Ask them all sorts of questions. A bunch of my relatives played college sports and here’s just a few questions based on some things they wish were better:
what happens if you have a conflict between class (or a test/presentation) and a meet (at my nephew’s school a prof didn’t have to let you have make-ups and some refused)
how accessible tutoring is (at my kid’s school, even though she was entitled to an athletic tutor, she was too far down the wait list to get one for the class she wanted)
questions around injuries. (my niece quit her sport because the coach was pushing her to play with injuries…luckily she was able to switch to another sport) (my kid had the opposite experience with her coach being very supportive and getting fabulous PT).
-also ask them about their typical in-season and off-season day
Hi @Mwfan1921, thanks so much for replying. I’m am still waiting back for my pre-read from Penn. For my Williams pre-read, I’m on the lower end of the supportable spectrum, but the coaches are really passionate about me and want to support me as much as they can. I’m not applying for financial aid (I wouldn’t qualify). So far, I do like the Williams Coach better based on my visits to both campuses, but I do think they are both terrific coaches with different personalities (Penn coach is more reserved, Williams coach is more extroverted). I have not met the teammates at Penn yet, but am planning on a September official visit. I did meet the Williams teammates (they gave me a tour of the campus) and they were super chill and seemed like really nice people.
Did the Williams coach give you a time limit on their offer? I would also make sure to understand the level of support the Williams coach is offering, and the likelihood of acceptance given said support level and your band.