Should I cut my son off...

[uclacee]

<p>First, I’ll say outright that I’ve just read the first page, not the whole thread.</p>

<p>Sorry to be blunt, but I feel sorry for your son that you’re limiting him like this. Birthright is a great program.</p>

<p>

@original poster

Ok… I’ll let you guys know what he wants to do, and my thought processes behind why I’m against it.</p>

<p>He wants to go on this trip to Israel:
Taglit-Birthright Israel: Homepage</p>

<p>My issue(s) are as follows:

1. I don’t want him going anywhere near the middle-east. It’s a dangerous place. I can’t help thinking about Alisa Flatow (Kfar Darom bus attack ), and that I’m sure that a day doesn’t go by, that her parents don’t wish that they forbid their daughter from going.

</p>

<p>If you’re worried about safety, then you obviously haven’t looked at Birthright’s track record. No participant in the trip ever got so much as a scratch. They know what they’re doing.</p>

<p>

</p>

<ol>
<li>I don’t agree with tactics/motivations of the organization offering the “free” trip. To wit:
a. They discriminate – only Jews are welcome.

</li>
</ol>

<p>That’s not discrimination. It’s merely a reflection that Judaism is the only religion that does NOT proselytize. The purpose of the trip (originally, at least) is to get Jews more connected to Judaism. It’s not discrimination.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>b. They manage the message – no free time, you only see what they want you to see.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Nothing could be farther from the truth. There is indeed free time given on the trip, and they make it EXTREMELY easy for you to extend your plane ticket (at no cost!) so that you have as much time as you like for yourself in Israel. They don’t have anything to hide–what would give you that impression? There’s a great variety in the different kinds of birthright trips, but on mine, there was ample time to mingle with the general Israeli public, and I can’t see why it’d be any different on the other trips.</p>

<p>

c. If you’ve been to Israel before (and have already formed an opinion), no free trip for you.

</p>

<p>Uh, same reason as before. They can only give out so many free trips, and the purpose is to get Jews interested in Judaism, so naturally they’re not looking at the Jews who already have some sort of connection.</p>

<p>

d. You get to “mingle” with Israeli soldiers – I don’t want my son hanging around with a foreign nation’s armed forces.

They’re allies with the U.S. Heck, the U.S. and Israel are almost exactly the same in terms of ideals. The U.S. has no better friend than Israel. (I’m assuming that you’re American, though I understand that Birthright also extends its offers in Canada.)</p>

<p>And what exactly disturbs you about that in the first place? You get to schmooze with them like good buddies. It was a great experience.</p>

<p>

e. This seems to me like a bunch of rich guys offering free trips to they can indoctrinate kids over to their point-of-view. It just “smells” wrong to me.

So your “intuition” is the only problem? Don’t trust your intuition. Look at the facts and their track records. Talk to other Birthright alumni.</p>

<p>

I know that my pov on this is probably in the minority, but I think as long as I’m paying the bills, my son should respect my wishes and not go on this trip.

I hate to say it, but I would have to agree with you on that one. But it’s a terrible shame that you’re holding him back from this great opportunity. </p>

<p>It’s not a single-sided regime, like the image you conjured up. There is a HUGE variety of birthright trips, from the completely secular that spends all their time on recreational stuff to the openly religiously observant. (From the trip’s idealistic origins, it has, for better or worse, expanded into areas so that now you can get a trip that will leave almost no idealistic impression on you and it would just be a ten-day vacation.) But you get to choose which one you go on. Personally I’d recommend the latter, but that’s up to you and your son.</p>

<p>Gee, from your first post you made it seem like your son wanted to join the mafia or something. Calm down.</p>

[thumper1]

<p>Actually from your first post, it SOUNDED like you wanted some opinions to help you make up your mind IF you should cut off finances for your college age son IF he went on this trip.</p>

<p>Clearly, your mind was made up before you posted. You plan to cut off all of your financial support for college if he goes on this trip. Nothing anyone says here is going to change your mind.</p>

<p>BTW…if you think your son hasn’t been bar hopping here as a college student, I have a bridge I can sell you.</p>

[jym626]

<p>Anyone getting the feeling this may be a joke/■■■■■ thread?</p>

[Consolation]

<p>

About the only thing I’ve really “learned” is that the Chocolate is much better in England, but all the other food is much worse.

</p>

<p>You’re kidding me, right? England is known for lousy chocolate. Of all the statements in this thread, this one amazes me most. :D</p>

<p>My perspective is different from that of many, because when my S went away to college he had virtually a full ride from the school, supplemented by funds we had put in trust for him years ago and no control over. We didn’t have a money card to play. If he did well or poorly, if he came home or didn’t, if he consulted us about anything or not: all depended on whether HE wanted to. It changes things.</p>

[frazzled1]

<p>And when a kid feels as if his parents see him as an adult, and knows his parents respect his opinions, he has nothing to prove by refusing to hear what they think. I hope the OP is thinking about his future relationship with his son. Do you want to be in the loop at all as time goes on, soze? You could withhold his college funding and prove that you’re still the alpha male in the family, but I hope you won’t.</p>

[kschmidt]

<p>OP, if you’d like, have your son spend a few days with my son…a 20 year old Marine who enlisted at 17, with my blessing and my signature on his enlistment papers. This 20 year old Marine just returned from an eight month deployment (his second deployment in a little over two years), where he spent almost a month in the Israeli desert training those soldiers you speak of. </p>

<p>You think sending your son on a 10 day chaperoned visit is hard? Try sending him off in a Marine uniform. He is proud to serve, and I’m as proud of him as any parent can be. Because he wears that uniform, your son gets to go to frat parties and make his own choices about his life. </p>

<p>Wow.</p>

[Nrdsb4]

<p>

I’d like to keep him as far away from said people as possible, if you don’t mind.

</p>

<p>Psst…Soze…guess what? You can’t.</p>

[Hunt]

<p>

OP simply wants to find someone to agree with him. Almost no one does so he simply restates his point.

It is this aspect of the thread that interested me. It seems pretty clear that the OP thought that he was going to get a lot more agreement than he did–the question was first stated hypothetically without stating what the “dangerous” thing was the son wanted to do. People didn’t really feel they could answer without knowing what the dangerous thing was, and when they found out what it was, almost all disagreed with OP’s position. That must have been surprising! As O7DAD points out, this is not the typical pattern here–usually there will be people to agree on cutting off kids almost on general principles, since they feel that kids don’t really deserve support in the first place. What makes this different? Well, as opposed to a kid who won’t call home, I think a lot larger percentage of the people here think that what this kids wants to do is a good thing. Second, I think many of us sensed that there was something else at work here, and in particular a problem with letting the son make an independant decision.</p>

<p>I guess I would just say that if most people here disagree with you, it’s a pretty clear signal to reexamine your position. That just doesn’t happen very often.</p>

[PAVenturer]

<p>Just a thought soze…at 19 your son is old enough to enlist in a branch of the US Armed Forces. Those guys have a tendency of going into some pretty dangerous places. When you were a kid, we had a draft. Your father was probably drafted. Mine was. 18 year old American men and women have been going into truly dangerous places without their father’s permission for a long, long time. What would your reaction have been if he came home and said he had joined the Marines and was shipping out to Afghanistan? Would you be disowning him then, too?</p>

[Indiana91]

<p>“Anyone getting the feeling this may be a joke/■■■■■ thread?”</p>

<p>I have from page two on. The comment about chocolate being better in England sealed it for me.</p>

[SlitheyTove]

<p>

There was someone in your family who agreed with the OP?

</p>

<p>15 year old D2 had some sympathy. Some of her friends aren’t going on Israel trips this summer because their parents are concerned with safety issues, so she sees where parental worry comes from. My suspicion is that the cost is even scarier. ;)</p>

[katliamom]

<p>^^^ there is no cost. It’s a free trip subsidized by Israel</p>

[soze]

<p>

Second, I think many of us sensed that there was something else at work here, and in particular a problem with letting the son make an independant decision.

</p>

<p>I said it before and I’ll say it again… I let him make independent decisions about EVERYTHING. His mother has a huge problem with his choice of college major, I supported it. He makes every decision on his own, he lives his own life and I don’t meddle. I’m not a helicopter parent, I don’t pry into his personal life, I let him alone to live it.</p>

<p>THIS ONE TIME, because it’s a genuine safety issue, I feel I need to interject. </p>

<p>Many on this thread are assuming that the <em>real</em> issue I have is a lack of control. Nothing could be further from the truth.</p>

[spideygirl]

<p>OP-</p>

<p>

we have about the same level of connection to North Korea that we do to Israel (which is to say, none at all)…. I was a Jewish kid once… never went to Israel, never wanted to

</p>

<p>

all-Jewish-all-day-all-the-time

Not so much. How can this be when you clearly have an anti-Zionist agenda? </p>

<p>

I don’t like the idea of rich people buying my kid a trip so as to advance their political agenda…. essentially what we have is a bunch of rich guys who want to indoctrinate a generation of youth with their point-of-view.

You want to be the person who uses money to brainwash your kid to have your own politics, so you assumed Birthright is doing the same thing.</p>

<p>As for the birthright people not being helpful when you phoned, have you ever tried to phone your over-18 son’s college or health care providers and intervene on his behalf without his consent? </p>

<p>

He’s very easily influenced. He never voluntarily joined anything in his life, but when he got to college he became one of the very small minority to join a frat because a bunch of his friends were doing it. Same with this trip.

So they forced him to join the frat? He is in the MINORITY of kids on his campus and joins a frat, and you say he follows others? You need to question your assumptions.</p>

<p>

This is pretty much the 19-year-old equivalent of letting that creepy guy with the candy coax you into his van…

You held the candy, and the van is yours. Let the kid out of the van. Actually, the kid is escaping the van and is rejecting the candy. </p>

<p>Others have offered facts disputing your preconceived notions about Birthright. There is free time. It isn’t dangerous. You can easily extend the trip to see more of Israel on your own.</p>

<p>Contrary to your own opinion, you may not have earned the title “Mr. Nice Guy”. Your issue is a political one. Not a cool thing, that.</p>

<p>

None of my son’s friends at school carry weapons.

You don’t know that. Maybe not on campus, but they may off campus if they have a permit to carry. It’s their right, here in the USA that you love so much. </p>

<p>This adult son is using his own judgment, thinking for himself, and making a decision. You are worried that he will be brainwashed by a political agenda, but you are verklempt that he will not be brainwashed by your own.</p>

[Hunt]

<p>

THIS ONE TIME, because it’s a genuine safety issue, I feel I need to interject. </p>

<p>Many on this thread are assuming that the <em>real</em> issue I have is a lack of control. Nothing could be further from the truth.

But you’ve been totally resistant to the many people who have told you–based on both personal experience and statistics–that it isn’t really a genuine safety issue. What are we to think?</p>

<p>Let me add to this, and give some real advice. If your concern really is safety, I think you are going to have to accept that your fears really aren’t rational. That doesn’t mean that you can just shrug them off. But if you can accept that your fears are irrational, you can see that it’s wrong of you to threaten to cut off your son if he doesn’t share those fears. You can reasonably feel hurt that he’s not willing to give up the trip in order to assuage your fears–some kids probably would do so. My own father missed out on a lot of travel he would have enjoyed because my mother was afraid of flying. When he finally defied her and went on a trip with his brothers (which she refused to go along on), she punished him for years. My advice is to try your best not to do that.</p>

<p>One more thing: if your real concern is safety, don’t cloud the issue by talking about propaganda, or contact with soldiers, or disrespect, or any of that. Tell your son that your afraid for his safety, and that’s why you don’t want him to go.</p>

[katliamom]

<p>OP - your son is probably aware of your philosophical objections. There is a chance that he will come back from Israel sympathetic to them. My best friend’s two daughters went on separate birthright trips, and both came back critical of Israeli policies towards Palestinians. They loved the trip, I don’t know if they felt “more Jewish” afterwards, but it WAS an eye-opening experience for them. Just maybe not in the way that the organizers hoped.</p>

<p>My advice - don’t jeopardize your relationship over this. From his point of view, you’re being an overprotective mom, so of course he’s being rude. (He’s 19 too – only legally an adult, emotionally probably not quite.) I’d let him go, and on his return listen carefully to his impressions and begin a discussion that includes your philosophy, politics and ideas.</p>

<p>In the end, it might prove to be a very enriching experience to you both.</p>

[soze]

<p>

there was ample time to mingle with the general Israeli public

</p>

<p>From a security perspective, I’m getting mixed information and that concerns me. Birthright’s website it states: “there is strictly no unsupervised free time in public areas.”, but on the other hand first-hand accounts (from postings on this thread) indicate that the kids are walking around and mingling and another poster said her daughter went out to bars in Tel-Aviv while on this trip.</p>

<p>Although they are saying one thing, the reality based on the first-hand information I’ve received here seems quite different, and concerning.</p>

[spideygirl]

<p>mommaj

I am also pleased that the program will provide a needed antidote to the constant anti-Israeli, pro-Palestinian propaganda (often rising to plain old fashioned anti-Semitism) that pervades every college campus these days–in fact, I assume that is one of Birthright’s goals, one I heartily applaud.

</p>

<p>I second that.</p>

<p>Mini

My feelings would likely be a strong as yours about such a so-called “birth-right” trip (would seem to me that Palestinians here have the true birthright) minus the business about the potential danger.)… I know lots of Jewish people who are deeply, deeply offended by trips like this. (Including Jewish college students as well.) …The way I honor my ancestors who died in the Holocaust (Treblinka was built on the site of my grandmother’s village) is to work for peace and justice wherever I can put my strength to the wheel. … No more than I would accept the propaganda on Birthight’s own site.

Mini, it sounds like you are just accepting different propaganda. Personally, I thank God for those Israeli soldiers who have a much higher likelihood of preventing future Treblinkas than your “work for peace and justice”. Sweet that you have such good intentions, of course. I’m just grateful that others are armed with things a whole lot more lethal than your good intentions.</p>

<p>Menloparkmom

the OP is paranoid as well as antisemitic. I hope son has a wonderful trip and eventually moves as far away from this hyper controlling parent as possible.

I hope the son moves to Israel and has a huge family – eight or nine kids. I hope all of those kids grow up and have large families as well. I hope they all serve in the army and help keep Israel strong and safe.</p>

[soze]

<p>

How can this be when you clearly have an anti-Zionist agenda?

</p>

<p>Not at all!
I’m not ani-Israel any more than I’m anti-France or anti-Japan (two other countries that I have no connection to).<br>
I’m sure the Israelis are a nice bunch of people and I have nothing against them. I just think that entire region is a dangerous part of the world and I’d rather keep my kids out.</p>

[SimpleRules]

<p>I think this might be a joke/■■■■■ thread but in case it is not or there is a serious reason for the pretense (college student anticipates said reaction from parent and is information gathering) I am going to post a real response.</p>

<p>As a very attached parent with lots of imagination for worse case scenarios I deeply sympathize with fear. </p>

<p>OP you have 2 options:

1. cut your S off and shut the door on your present and future relationship or,
2. face your fears, accept the trip and open unlimited doors to present and future communication and relationship.</p>

<p>6 months ago or so there was a thread about whether a student was ready for overseas travel or not. The general consensus was - if they can plan the trip they are ready. Your S. planned - he is ready.</p>

<p>If you go for option #2 you will have a platform for discussing your political beliefs, fears, and concerns - you will have a voice in this young man’s life. Option #1 - nothing but a shut door.</p>

<p>Last, but not least, because this trip is highly planned, meaningful, limited in time, closely supervised, and free many parents (I for one!) have first trip envy. </p>

<p>Deal with your fears, be honest with yourself as to whether the origin is political or just plain worry, let him take a real step toward adulthood and do it with style.</p>