<p>What many don’t understand, I feel, is that learning a language (any language, whether it be foreign or native) through exposure/absorption is so much different from learning it from a text book. You can ask someone who speaks the language by absorption how to translate the sentence “I will go.” into Spanish, and they can do it, but they have no idea why. Those who study language know that verbs must be conjugated to match their subject, and the finite verb in that sentence is “will”. Go will be infinite. They will also know that Spanish has a construction [ “ir a” + infinitive ] so the final sentence would be “Yo voy a ir” </p>
<p>Ask a native, and chances may be be that or she does not even know what conjugation, a preposition, or an infinitive are. (Of course, this depends largely on schooling, but I know for sure that a majority of my friends who speak English are unable to explain the grammatical rules of the language, they are just aware of what sounds, and doesn’t sound correct)</p>
<p>Perhaps a native speaker of the language wants to MASTER that language, perhaps he or she wants to be able to teach to another friend. Maybe he or she wants to once and for all understand why “Between you and I…” is completely and unacceptably wrong. </p>
<p>As for throwing off the curve, I am not familiar with the stats. AP World Language, I believe, is the fourth or fifth year progression of learning a language. Chances are that some 9th grade who took Spanish I and II in middle school isn’t taking the exam. Isn’t the curve skewed anyway?</p>
<p>I agree with Bread Roll that many try all in their power to pad transcripts, but I think that a native taking his or her mother tongue’s AP test demonstrates a self-interest in the language. The native obviously does not need to prove that s/he speaks the language, but the test score demonstrates that s/he was exposed to formal education in the language (hopefully, of course it depends on the class).</p>
<p>Wow, I think this is a ridiculous question. Of course they should be able to take the test. Just because you SPEAK the language doesn’t mean you are LITERATE. </p>
<p>More than half of my AP Spanish class is made up of native speakers. NONE of them have perfect spanish, especially when it comes to grammar and spelling. Example: many native speakers leave off the silent H’s in words, dont’ know where to put accents, etc. It’s important that they learn these things and become excellent at the language beyond speaking and listening. Not at (or even most) native speakers are going to pass the test with ease. </p>
<p>second point: THEY CHANGED THE TEST TO MAKE IT MORE “FAIR” AND DIFFICULT FOR NATIVE SPEAKERS. The AP exam (since last year) incorporates a lot of synthesis of information. The formal writing and speaking require the use of sources and for the student to come up with their own thesis about the topic. This has been extremely difficult for some of the native speakers in my class, and despite their perfect spanish, they can’t pass these sections without being able to synthesize information. </p>
<p>In this way, the AP Spanish exam does reflect the AP English exams in testing native speakers on the language. It’s not an easy test, and just because someone speaks spanish does not mean they have the skills to pass it.</p>
<p>I don’t see how it is ridiculous at all. Native speakers have a huge advantage over non natives in language tests. It cannot be denied. </p>
<p>Those are native speakers? How can you be a native speaker and not be able to do something as simple as pronounciation of a silent h or accent? If a native speaker is repeatedly saying “heh-cho” instead of “eh-cho,” there’s a problem. The accents are no excuse either. Someone with halfway decent experience in conversational Spanish can sound out the word and figure out where the accent goes.</p>
<p>The fact that the test is being made “harder” only means that you’re making it harder for gringos too. Are you saying that white kids are better at synthesizing information and composing thesis than hispanics?</p>
<p>As for the curve…The scores on AP and SAT II are determined by how well the overall body does. If a ton of native speakers get 5’s and 800’s, then it’s that much harder for everyone else to do as well.</p>
<p>So those who are advantaged should not be allowed to take the test, and those who are disadvantaged should be? AP exam is not financial aid! It is designed to measure someone’s skill in the language, just that. It measures fluency. If you a fluent, you’ll probably do better than someone who is not. That’s how it is supposed to be.</p>
<p>Like it’s been pointed out: Why is it that a mathematical genius should be allowed to take the Calc test, but not someone who is fluent in the language?</p>
<p>Most importantly, there is no way to quantitatively determine who “native” a language is without, ironically a test. Do you suggest giving tests to determine who is too fluent, and then those who score well are not allowed to take the AP World Language test?</p>
<p>There are a lot of native speakers that don’t know proper/formal grammar because they learn slang or just bad grammatical habits. Also, many people can’t write/read as well as they speak. It’s completely legit.</p>
<p>My parents and grandparents (with whom I grew up with too) were all born in Korea. I was as immersed in Korean culture as much as I could’ve been, but I don’t consider myself a fluent speaker. My English, is by far, better. It’s not always case and point.</p>
<p>And if you’re worried about the curve, I know for the AP the curve is based on non-native scores. Then the natives get thrown in there on our curve (so they won’t hurt us).</p>
<p>Sungchul if you’re right about what you say about curves I will be happy. </p>
<p>I guess I don’t care much if they take the exams as long as they don’t mess up the curve for me lol. But sometimes I don’t see the point of them taking the exam if they are at a certain level of fluency, but they can if they want to. </p>
<p>Anyone else wish they had other APs/SAT 2 languages such as in Korean and Hindi. These two are very very popular in the US.</p>
<p>wait how can they not account for natives’ scores when calculating the curve for the AP tests? I’ve never taken an AP language test before, how can they tell? Because my last name is Chinese (I am Chinese) but I never grew up learning the language, my only substantial exposure to it was in middle school -> high school. I’m terrified for the AP chinese test because of the high % of 5’s (most probably native speakers…) There are 5 people (myself included) taking the chinese exam, 2 (or 3) are native speakers.</p>
<p>I’m sorry, but I have to disagree (with the OP). As a foreign immigrant, I speak fluently french because I have always lived there. Last year, I made 5’s on both AP french tests: I don’t see why I shouldn’t be able to take those tests. Although as the OP noticed, those tests are not made for native speakers, I would like to ask him if the SAT/ACT/AP English/AP Biology… are made for French speakers? </p>
<p>The answer is NO. They are meant to be for English speakers, and yet, I still have to take them, even if I only spoke english for 2 years so far. Am I complaining about it? Sure. But the fact remains that I am disadvantaged on almost all the standardized tests in the US; to compensate for this, I should be allowed to take the AP french tests. It evens out the disadvantage: if I, a non-native english speaker, has to take tests meant for native english speakers, why should US students complain about taking an AP french with french students?</p>
<p>On the other hand, I could also argue for a special curve on the SAT, AP English… for non-native english speakers. Would you find this fair?</p>
<p>“So, how would you stop native speakers from taking SAT II or AP tests in their language?”</p>
<p>That definitely is the question. Hypothetically speaking, I don’t think they should be allowed to.</p>
<p>“And if you’re worried about the curve, I know for the AP the curve is based on non-native scores. Then the natives get thrown in there on our curve (so they won’t hurt us).”</p>
<p>And they differentiate between native and non native how?</p>
<p>"So those who are advantaged should not be allowed to take the test, and those who are disadvantaged should be? AP exam is not financial aid! It is designed to measure someone’s skill in the language, just that. It measures fluency. If you a fluent, you’ll probably do better than someone who is not. That’s how it is supposed to be.</p>
<p>AP and SATII are designed for students who learn a language by STUDY in a classroom.</p>
<p>“Like it’s been pointed out: Why is it that a mathematical genius should be allowed to take the Calc test, but not someone who is fluent in the language?”</p>
<p>There is maybe 1 math genius for 5000 native speakers.</p>
<p>“Most importantly, there is no way to quantitatively determine who “native” a language is without, ironically a test. Do you suggest giving tests to determine who is too fluent, and then those who score well are not allowed to take the AP World Language test?”</p>
<p>A native speaker is one who learned a language to fluency (fluent - can be dropped off in a native country and survive) throughout the course of his family life.</p>
<p>Honestly, this may sound harsh, I will have to say get over it. Stop complaining about the unfair advantage a native speaker may get in their respective foreign language tests. This is like saying the native speakers of English get an unfair advantage on the SAT because they’ve been learning English the second they’re born. Then should we prevent the native English speakers from taking the same SAT tests, being tested on the same scale as the non-natives? Since the native speakers obviously have an advantage over these tests over the non-natives. </p>
<p>Ultimately, in a holistic view, none of this native, non-native test taking should make any difference. Think of it this way. Though a native Chinese speaker may score an easy 800 on that SATII, a native English speaker, on the other hand, should score better on the SAT Verbal, or other English related tests, provided that both test takers are of equal intelligence and diligence. So really, when it comes down to it, it all boils down to inherent genetic make-ups and work ethic.</p>
<p>jamesford, I was talking about WRITING. many native speakers dont’ know how to write and my write something like “hay” as “ay” because they dont’ realize there is a silent h. </p>
<p>These are the kinds of things they need to be taught in a language class. They are learning to become LITERATE. </p>
<p>And yes, the synthesizing part has made the test extremely difficult for everyone, native speakers and textbook learners alike. But it gives them that extra challenge that people are saying is needed.</p>
<p>OK, I didn’t mean to come off as complaining, I just wanted to get some discussion/opinions out of this. Some very good points were made, on both sides. I suppose the conclusion of this would be: take an AP course or other school course as a native speaker because you want to further or complete your mastery of your language, not because you want an easy 5 or 800 (assuming you were capable of easily getting those scores).</p>
<p>I think everyone has been exaggerating the extent of the curve…for the most part people deserve the scores they get
if NO native speakers took a language test, you’re still NOT going to get a 5 if you do poorly. it would hardly be fair to give students who only correctly answered half the test a 5 just b/c they did the best compared to all other test takers</p>
<p>it’s all about perspective. if you were a native speaker you’d probably jump to take the test and (maybe) ace it w/ ease. i would ;)</p>
<p>What happened at my old school was that there’d be two types of Spanish classes - a normal one, and a Spanish for Native Speakers and I think the native speakers ended up not taking the AP test but went on to do much higher advanced stuff as opposed to the regular kids - I think that would be an ideal situation :)</p>