<p>Losing is a greater teacher than winning. If I had a kid who had a dream and put action behind it, by all means, support that!</p>
<p>I’m all for supporting our kids dreams … if one can’t dream and aim high as a teenager when will they ever be able to? As a quick model of how we would do it if we had a kid amazingly talented I look at Missy Franklin and her family’s approach. They caught some grief for not following “the model” for world class swimmers and did not move, having her swim for her HS team, etc … and she only won the second most medals at the 2012 Olympics at 17! Could she have done better if she had followed the model … who knows … but her comment was “I know I would not have been as happy and I believe I would not do as well if I am not happy”. Given the results they seemed to have picked a great path … hopefully more families will follow their example (IMO).</p>
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<p>We all have to remember that there are big events other than the Olympics. The World team can apparently still include 7 gymnasts. Anna Li (the bars specialist who was an Olympics alternate but was injured shortly after she got to England) was on the 2011 World team. Bridget Sloan, who was on the 08 Olympic team (didn’t compete in the AA finals because of the two per country rule) came back in 09 and won Nationals and World AA. Rebecca Bross was on a World team, I think in '10.</p>
<p>If you’ve ever been to Nationals or one of the big meets (e.g. the Secret [fka Cover Girl] Classic), you know that they’re a much bigger deal than the run of the mill meets held at gymnastics gyms. They’re held in big arenas full of cheering fans, there are TV cameras, etc. It would still be a really big deal for most kids just to compete at that level; there are also other international meets. Other sports must have the equivalent. I think athletes can still have a great feeling of accomplishment, even if they don’t make an Olympic team.</p>
<p>SoozieVT: what a pleasure to hear from you and hear that your daughter is doing so well!</p>
<p>dmd, thanks! She has a lot on her plate but they are all positive things! She even is working on a project (among many) out your way. </p>
<p>Picking up on what some others also mentioned, I really don’t think a child should be discouraged from pursuing certain interests in the arts and in sports just because they may not become Olympians or Broadway stars, etc., but the activities themselves have intrinsic value. We support our kids’ interests but never pushed them. In fact, they tended to push us. If a kid has a certain passion and drive, there is no stopping them. They do not have to reach the pinnacle of their endeavor in order for the endeavor to have been very worthwhile.</p>
<p>I really always agree with what Soozie has to say on the subject of kids pursuing the performing arts. Regardless of the “outcome,” in that particular area, what they learn about working with others, meeting deadlines, working beyond normal hours, total commitment to a project, follow through… etc. This is invaluable in any area of life, in my opinion. All the critical reasoning skills are contained in any good dramaturgy project, for example, and find me a performing arts major who doesn’t have spectacular leadership and organizational and multitasking skills, and I will find you someone who will graduate with a different degree.</p>
<p>I might feel this way because so far my daughter is working professionally in many areas, or maybe just because she is happy and busy. But, truly, they do learn how to work from 9am to midnight every day, at the least. True endurance.</p>
<p>As for the sports angle, I have one who was wildly skilled and talented and those doors just kept opening for her, but she did decide at around 16 that she wasn’t enjoying it anymore. Some disappointed DI coaches, but I’m fine with it. All those years pursuing her passion ( at the time ) taught her how to commit and work so hard. Now, she has a different passion, and I completely see how what she learned as an elite athlets has transferred very well.</p>
<p>When I think either of these types of passions becomes a “problem” is when they are set on stardom. performing well, winning games, being part of a team, working hard, etc… I think that can be counted on. Stardom? If that is the goal in either? That is a passion I would highly discourage. It may turn out to be an ancillary outcome, but, as a measure of value, it’s a very undependable and luck reliant path. YMMV</p>
<p>My problem with kids whose dreams center on sports or dance is that the successful ones reach their peak achievements in these fields very early in life.</p>
<p>Then what?</p>
<p>Gabby Douglas reached the highest possible achievement level in her field at 16. But she still has a life to live. Has she had a chance to prepare to do anything else?</p>
<p>Marian (107),
Gabby is only 16. She can go to college and pursue anything. She could stick with sports and coach or be a TV commentator, speaking engagements, etc. Her world is wide open. </p>
<p>Poetgrl (106),
I agree with all you wrote and particularly that stardom is not the goal. It wasn’t and isn’t for either of my kids but rather sheer passion for what they do. Achievements are a nice bonus. And you are right that so many other things are learned in these artistic and athletic pursuits. One of my kids played a varsity sport in college and has even coached that sport on the collegiate level, but her career is not related to her sport, yet the skills obtained through that endeavor have carried over to her career and she lists her athletic stuff on her professional resume in her unrelated field.</p>
<p>I think it should be noted that the ancillary skills and character traits that are learned through an activity may be fully acquired in years 1-6 of participation, such that years 7-12 might be superfluous in that regard. Furthermore, years 7-12 might be better spent on a different activity for which the child is better suited and for which he may have/may develop a similar passion if guided towards it by the parent.</p>
<p>It’s always a trade-off. In an ideal world, we’d have ulimited time, energy, and resources to pursue whatever activities we want for as long as we want. But we don’t have this luxury in real life. A dedicated pursuit of sports or theater or music would be a better option for most kids if we envision the alternative to be just sitting on the couch watching TV and eating junk food. However, a misdirected dedication to even a valuable endeavor means lost opportunities to do something that could be so much better for the child. Maybe the too-short basketball player is missing out on a hobby he’d enjoy even more than basketball, but he’s too busy striving against his physical disadvantage in order to play that he won’t find that other passion. Being a happy, but very mediocre basketball player could be inferior to being a happy, but superior fencer or a happy, highly talented sports writer.</p>
<p>Great question! I rely on philosophy.</p>
<p>First, is the Hand Formula, named for the judge who coined it in the 1940’s. The formula is B > PL. B is the “burden” or cost of risk-prevention. P is the “probability” of loss. L is the gravity of the loss. So, multiply the probability of the loss times the gravity of the loss, and if it’s less than the cost, take a shot. If it’s not, move on to something else.</p>
<p>Second, is a quote from former NFL running back Rickey Watters. When questioned at a post-game press conference why he didn’t try to catch a pass that might have won the game for his team, but resulted in Watters taking a punishing hit, Watters replied, “For Who? For What?”. Watters got skewered for it, but it was a great philosophical question, especially for sports or stage parents.</p>
<p>Third, I rely on a philosophy called “moving the goal posts”. If the answers to the questions above are unsatisfactory, redefine the objective to an attainable one, then move up from there.</p>
<p>I liked watching Beach Volleyball most in this Olympics. I liked our gold medalists, their tone, their maturity, their strong and healthy and womanly bodies. The whole vibe felt good to me.</p>
<p>My own kids have gone thru so many changes in terms of self-knowledge and figuring out what works for them and same for my DH and me that I can’t help being skeptical about really, really young kids putting such extraordinary amounts of their time into some of these sports that demand it. Sure it can work for a tiny fraction and they will win gold and make money from the whole endeavor. But what about opportunity cost? What about the books that went unread that might have stirred their souls or triggered an intellectual depth within them that leads them into inquiry they’d never considered before.</p>
<p>I think what troubles me about the Olympic sports that put such a premium on youth is that such pursuits must inevitably impact the intellectual growth of the kid. I acknowledge there are many “lessons” they learn that other more “ordinary” kids probably don’t learn. But I think childhood and youth are such a critically important time for kids to have enough down time to just noodle over questions and ponder and be still in the moment of their fresh lives. </p>
<p>So yeah, gymnastics was too sad for me to watch.</p>
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<p>The really bright ones can still do well. Sarah Hughes (gold medal in figure skating while in HS) graduated from Yale.</p>
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<p>Here is one thing that has fascinated me about my own kid (gymnast, now a competitive cheerleader): the lessons she learned have had NO carryover into academics. She is incredibly tenacious in learning new tumbling skills, for example. She will try and try and try - land on her knees, get bruised up, keep trying until she gets it. But if a math problem is difficult, she will give up. Self disciplined and self motivated in her sport? Absoutely. Self disciplined and self motivated in academics? Not at all. </p>
<p>So I’m always a bit skeptical when people talk about the great lessons athletes learn.</p>
<p>missypie, I take your points. But what I’m trying to express here – and apparently not succeeding – is intellectual opportunity cost, not academic outcome. Yes, Sarah Hughes went to an Ivy. Both my kids went to Ivies and trust me not every kid at an Ivy is a scholar in the true sense of the word! I mean the ultra-busy athlete child inevitably loses out on free time for unstructured reading and musing. They are sort of the prototypical kid multi-taskers and some with success at their sports and good marks and test scores will be sought after by elite colleges. But that doesn’t mean that they have been allowed true intellectual growth.</p>
<p>I’ve never been that excited about kids being super busy at anything, actually. :)</p>
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<p>I think many of us are guilty of raising ultra-busy kids, even if they don’t have any particular athletic or artistic talent or passion. At the risk of giving away my age, when I was growing up, there was often “nothing to do” and there really wasn’t…4 or 5 channels on TV with no children’s programming. Now, even if there is no planned activity, they can choose from 60 channels on Tv, DVDs, etc. So many - dare I say most - of our kids miss out on unstructured reading and musing.</p>
<p>TV? DVD’s? Mine spends her time on Facebook and Twitter! But as busy as she is, she still does read for pleasure when she can.</p>
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<p>How does a kid develop true intellectual growth? Is it unstructured reading and musing? I really don’t know–I’m wondering if there any studies about this. Lots of kids whose parents put an emphasis on their academic activities have great academic successes, but are they really intellectuals? I think a true intellectual is rare. My feeling is that kids are born with that trait and parents can nurture a kid who has it, but if a kid isn’t inclined to a “life of the mind” unstructured time/musing isn’t going to create it. I think most involved parents have a pretty realistic sense of their child’s talents and engage them in activities that nurture those talents.</p>
<p>missypie=I will have to disagree with you about the carryover to academics. YOUR child doesn’t carry over the same skills, and I am assuming you have pointed out to her that the struggles are the same. Our kids have learned a LOT in their various activities that have carried over to academics-the best one being don’t procrastinate.</p>
<p>SteveMA, I did qualify it by saying it was my own kid. It amazes me. She does work well with teams, so that may be a carryover. And she doesn’t get stage fright over anything; that must be a carryover from gymnastics.</p>
<p>I just always remember how when a coach is trying to get your kid to go from 2 hours a day, three days a week to 3+ hours a day, 5 days a week, they tell you how kids on that kind of schedule are BETTER students, etc. Um, not mine!</p>
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<p>You put my thoughts into words. S is a musician about to head to conservatory-within-U to study…and earn a BM that will be, IMO, no less useful than a “regular” college degree. I think he’ll do better because of his passion.</p>
<p>I have to laugh at the gymnast stories because all I can picture is my little D at the Y preschool gymnastics class, towering over the other 3-4 year olds, jumping around waving her arms frantically and having an absolute blast but looking extremely uncoordinated and HUGE :D</p>
<p>She has played almost every sport at some point but has now settled on volleyball and LAX, both of which she is good “enough” at and where her height is an advantage. But her focus is academics. Sports are FUN for her, and I like that they fill her time productively and make her feel good and keep her fit and healthy. She even does the club thing, though regionally, not nationally. It’s her grades that will get her to college, she knows. That’s no reason to quit the sports though.</p>
<p>When my son was in high school he decided that he wanted to major in music. We supported his efforts, but I never told him I thought he was just a good player. I thought that he had potential, and I wanted him to know that we were behind whatever it was he chose. Fast forward to senior year, and with some acceptances and some rejections to music programs (none elite), he decided in April to major in engineering. He is now a successful young engineer, and very happy with his career choice. </p>
<p>On an interesting side note, while he was still in high school, my husband noted that he showed more enthusiasm and spent more time on his physics problem sets. When we questioned him about this, he countered with this was his homework! So now, years later, we are glad that we let him choose his own course at his timetable. We did miss the concerts, though!</p>