<p>^^obviously, every state is different, and not sure what ‘upper midwest’ means, or what publics that you are interested at, but I took a look at Minnesota’s AP credit list as an example. UMin is rather generous, IMO, since they give full course credit for a 3 on the test. UM even gives credit for AP Gov and Human Geography (whatever that is), which many private colleges do not recognize.</p>
<p>but the point I was trying to make is that publics accept a broad spectrum of students to fulfill the state mission: some students with a lot of AP credits and a wonderful high school curriculum, and others who may be low income and attended under-resourced inner city schools with more shop courses than college prep course. The former students should have absolutely no trouble graduating in four years – if they try; while the latter category may have to work 30 hours a week to send money home to help pay family bills. Such latter students will struggle to graduate in 5 years.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, all of the above students are used for calculating the average grad rate. If your kid is coming into Minn with a lot of AP credits than the 4-year grad rate should become much less of a concern, IMO.</p>
<p>There appears (based on quick eyeballing) to be a rough correlation between 4-year graduation rates and admissions selectivity, and there also seems to be some correlation to cost of attendance.</p>
<p>Such correlations would not be too surprising, since students at more selective schools are more likely to avoid the usual student-related reasons for delayed graduation (failing courses, needing remedial course work, etc.), and higher cost of attendance gives a greater financial incentive to avoid taking an extra semester (especially if scholarships and financial aid cut off after 8 semesters).</p>
<p>But then that means that the 4-year graduation rates may be saying less than what you think they may be saying about the school.</p>
<p>Perhaps it would be interesting to see the 4-year (or, more accurately, 8 academic semester) graduation rate among cohorts of students based on the 4-year graduation rates of the highest-4-year-graduation-rate school that they were admitted to, to compare those who chose to attend that school versus those who chose to attend other schools with lower graduation rates.</p>
<p>Regarding University of Minnesota – note that it has a 4-year pledge program, even though its 4-year graduation rate is only about 55%:
<a href=“http://academic.umn.edu/fouryear/[/url]”>http://academic.umn.edu/fouryear/</a>
(Oddly, math is one of the few ineligible majors; other science majors and engineering are eligible.)</p>
<p>The problem with that is the people who don’t apply to the higher schools they could get into because they don’t want to waste the money on applications if they know they’re going to a school where they’re guaranteed in.</p>
<p>Back to the point (my point :)); There are 2 parties responsible for ensuring graduation in 4 years. The student and the institution. Some institutions are better at moving kids through in 8 semesters, than others, and that should be a consideration for “total cost of attendance”</p>
<p>There are socioeconomic conditions that affect this. However, I don’t believe it “moves the needle” much when looking at the overall gross sample size. UT did a study that showed students that received the most financial aid (vs. loans), were more likely to graduate in 4 years. Presumably those receiving more grants, demonstrated more need, are further down the economic scale.</p>
<p>Minnesota wasn’t on our radar - But staying in the BIG 10. UMich 4 year grad rate = 73%; most others bob around the midpoint. And Nebraska = 32%</p>
<p>Many friends and colleagues warned of the likely hood of an extra semester or year (their actual experience) due to class availability issues at Minnesota and Wisconsin.</p>
<p>Also, Minnesota is relatively low cost, even for out-of-state. This can give more of a budget buffer, though it also reduces the student’s incentive to graduate on time.</p>
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<p>Have you checked how those graduation rates map to the admissions selectivity of the schools?</p>
<p>Yes - and it leads to a parallel discussion about whether or not the “best” colleges produce high achievers? or only attract high achievers.</p>
<p>Principally, I’m not sure I’m “on board” with the supposed value of a 4 year pledge? that really, only in essence, requires an incoming freshman to stick with whatever major they (prematurely) agreed to. I think that’s an easy out for the college, and puts undue pressure on the student. If the college would make this guaranty if entered into before the Junior year? then it would be meaningful.</p>
<p>you’re in favor of colleges requiring declared majors freshman year? If so, they’re commonly referred to as “trade schools” The first 2 years of a 4 year college are genuinely about “discovery”</p>
<p>not sure how you got that interpretation at all. (And I won’t even try.)</p>
<p>But speaking of Michigan – they, too offer plenty of AP/IB credits. Granted, not quite as generous as Minnesota, which offers full credits for 3’s, but Michigan still offers credit for some 3’s, and 4’s, all of which can result in advanced standing for a matriculating Frosh.</p>
<p>You’re not familiar with requiring a major at the end of Sophomore year (beginning of Junior year?) It’s only the norm at almost every college. Ever heard of “generals” or “CORE” requirements?</p>
<p>Of course AP credits have that result. That’s what they’re intended for. Look at the AP requirements for NU, and look at their 4 year grad rate? notice anything?</p>
<p>Some majors have long enough prerequisite sequences that a student who is interested in the major must start on the major early to avoid delaying graduation, even if there is no requirement to declare a major early. An undecided student who does not plan his/her first two years to make progress in each of his/her possible majors could unwittingly close off the possibility of on-time graduation in some majors.</p>
<p>Also, universities which are not wealthy enough to maintain spare capacity to handle undecideds and students changing majors at will may enroll each major to its maximum capacity and admit freshmen directly into majors, with changing major often requiring a competitive admissions process. This is obviously not the ideal situation for an undecided student, but it is what budget-pinched state universities (that enroll a majority of four year college students) often have to implement.</p>
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<p>Really? A large percentage of colleges do not have free choice of major declaration (assuming that the student has planned his/her schedule carefully to have the prerequisites done). Even those that do not have entering freshmen in majors may have divisional restrictions (e.g. changing between arts and sciences, engineering, business, etc. may be limited or require an admission process).</p>
<p>Really really. I’d need definition of what constitutes “large percentage” to wade into this discussion. And I contend; the majority of colleges allow free choice (or make changing relatively painless) through sophomore year.</p>
<p>Just looking at Big Ten schools, most do not allow free choice in that at least some majors have a competitive admission process or have requirements greater than just passing the prerequisites:</p>
<p>Not necessarily, since there clearly exist many parents wiling and able to pay for multiple semesters beyond 8 to support their young en’s choices. :D</p>
<p>I must say, those must be some lucky students, having some of their education expenses paid. One thing I have noticed about this website, is that many people refer to college/university students as kids. Since when are 20 something year olds kids? I suppose many of you are parents of university students.</p>
<p>We were in an unusual position. D started at a CC, where she attended for 3 semesters. As a result, it took her a little time to figure out which major she wanted & to get accepted into that major. We are paying for 7 semesters at expensive private U to go with her 3 semesters of CC. We would of course have loved it if she was done after only 5 semesters of U, but fortunately it is working out OK for all of us. At this time, not sure she will want grad school, as it doesn’t seem too crucial for her field.</p>
<p>S was exactly 8 semesters of private U. He could have graduated earlier, but we encouraged him to take some “fun” courses and have no regrets. He MAY go to grad school, but will likely get employer to assist.</p>
<p>Each family has a different situation–depends on the options available to the kid, field, expenses, family resources, agreements that have been made between parents & student, etc.</p>
<p>As a practical matter, many students have challenges getting all coursework done in 4 years, especially when the student doesn’t enter with lots of AP and/or other college credit and also when courses are reduced due to budget constraints, etc.</p>
<p>Oh, yes, the 3 semesters was MUCH cheaper than 1 semester of expensive private U (she lived at home & CC tuition was negligible, as was the cost of books). It was even cheaper than the SR year of HS that she skipped. In any case, it was the route she chose, with our support and encouragement. None of us have any regrets and we all hope it equips her with job options upon her graduation (if not sooner).</p>
The first 2 years of a 4 year college are genuinely about “discovery”</p>