My company changed its interview protocol a few years ago (technology helped). We used to book/pay for plane tickets and hotel ahead of time for kids coming in for second rounds, and then they handed over receipts for the incidentals which we reimbursed. We had several people point out that a $30 taxi ride is a hardship for a kid squeaking to the finish line at college from a family which doesn’t have the luxury of sending money to cover incidentals every time an unexpected expense comes up.
So we can now use prepaid debit cards-- no questions asked- no need for a kid to have to ask us for a cash advance to cover the small stuff.
It was grossly insensitive of us to assume that every family in America has the wherewithal to fund a college kid’s job search.
In the department of illustration-by-anecdote, I noticed this in my newspaper this morning:
A few observations: There aren’t many here who would put Trinity on the “elite” side of the elite/non-elite divide, and most would scoff at the value of going to a mid-rank LAC. Yet for this woman (who, to be sure, is our age, not our kids’ age), going to Trinity was life-changing and incredibly valuable. (The story later relates that Trinity faculty encouraged her to think about going to law school when it hadn’t occurred to her she could do that.) She went to Yale Law School, so she’s not exactly Exhibit A for the proposition that elite credentials don’t matter, but she was massively helped on her way by her LAC.
(Also, funny thought, Bibi Netanyahu, prime minister of Israel, was one of her high school classmates.)
PCHope are you saying that a kid from RPI or Case would be in the 10% other? Where does your department draw the line at “elite” that the 80% come from?
I was not saying that at all! There is no clear line of elite vs others. I was stating the results of our student composition, not the process how we admit them.
In our small world, where PhD admission is pretty much potential adviser driven once an applicant passes initial screening, Case and RPI are definitely better regarded than similarly USNEWS ranked NEU or Miami. It has a lot to do with the overall “academic reputation” of an institution, and/or faculty strength in our particular field.
@PCHope, to build on your point, this is why I have a problem with the blind allegiance to USNews/selectivity rankings that you often see here on CC. To know which school is best or most worth it, you really need to research the schools to find out strengths and weaknesses, the type of environment, and how well each aligns with someone’s potential goals and personality.
After doing that, a school that is deemed worse by USN (or some other facile metric) may actually be better in all respects (or as good but cheaper).
Wow to the question about the middle class affording a plane ticket to CA, and the assumption vacation = flying. I guess in your world (where what we call “the other half” lives), plane tickets are required for vacation since everyone flies to Europe or exotic tropical destinations. Actually, we jump in the car and drive an hour to the beach. Maybe we’ll rent a house there for a week, and cook our own meals. The year before last we didn’t go on vacation to save money so that this past June we could as a family go to CA for D’s graduation. (BTW, we had never gone for parents’ weekend or to watch her compete in her sport in the four years. Needed the money for her education.) However, we could only stay the weekend because D3 had high school final exams Monday morning. To be honest, we wouldn’t have been able to afford to stay much longer anyway. And yes, there were kids graduating whose parents couldn’t attend. Not only is plane fare expensive, but hotel prices near campus triple that weekend and aren’t ever cheap in Palo Alto. For those who are regular travelers and aren’t overwhelmed at the idea of even getting on a plane, like some poor folks are, there are ways to manage. We rented a car and stayed outside the triple price radius. My D’s friends’ parents, though, could all afford to pay to stay across the street
Renting a house for a week costs more than a plane ticket.
So if you can afford that, you should be able to afford a plane ticket.
BTW, you seem to like to assume a lot, don’t you?
I missed the one and only time my school went to the Rose Bowl in my lifetime because I didn’t want to ask my parents to shell out for the plane ticket and game ticket as it would have been a sacrifice for them (and they would have seen it as frivolous).
That’s why I didn’t think staying over in Stanford over Thanksgiving was such a big deal; I would have had to have done the same if I have gone to school there.
And my parents never went on vacation until I was working and able to send them.
“^one thing is for sure is evident that all this hoopla about Elite palces exists mostly on east and west coasts, Midwest is pretty immune to this, with few exceptions.”
The midwest is not so immune, IMO. But not every business needs “high flyers” for every function, and the targeted schools are somewhat different because the companies have to worry about recruiting yield and employee retention. So for example when a particular firm I’m familiar with needed some high-flyers for their top trading-related “brains” department, they recruited finance people at U Chicago,U Illinois, U Texas. The best programs for what that company was doing that existed in the middle of the country, where they reasonably expected a lot of the kids they might interview would actually come there and stay there, and had a sizable pool of such people to interview. That company also had plenty of jobs that would not be attractive for “elites”, and for those they interviewed at the local state universities.
@TheGFG, how much does a plane ticket from NJ to CA cost for you? I can find one for under $400. You can rent a house for less than $60 a night?
BTW, my parents weren’t middle middle-class. They were poor. Yet they were still able to scrape together the few thousand dollars every year that wasn’t covered by fin aid (including the $700+ for mandatory health insurance that my mom was quite bitter about). That’s why I find your assertion that a middle middle-class family can’t find a few hundred dollars for a plane ticket rather hard to believe.
AFAICT, Kraft’s CEO, Harvard; Heinz’s CEO, the Pontifical Catholic University of Rio de Janeiro. Not sure how that factors into the discussion, though.
Agree with that as well, PT. A school like Case or RPI would not be considered “elite” but could send some very good STEM majors into PhD programs. PCHope: I thought you were saying that 80% of domestic PhD students at your institution came from “elite” (top 20? (15?)) Us and a few top State Research Us. That seemed to suggest that it is much harder to get into a good STEM PhD program coming from a very good, but not tippy top school. Which would support Happy’s contention about doors closing if a student is coming from a “non-elite”.
“”^one thing is for sure is evident that all this hoopla about Elite places exists mostly on east and west coasts, Midwest is pretty immune to this, with few exceptions.""
Well, the Midwest might not be “immune,” but most other locations besides the 2 coasts are not possessed of the mania. And “coasts” mean mostly the metro (read, wealthier) regions there. Go inland or to the mountainous areas, and the sanity meter stabilizes. The PNW, the SW, and most of the Gulf States don’t hold such extreme perceptions as a whole, but note many Elite apps nevertheless from GA and TX.
@blossom Does your company also advance new hires money for relocation? Or do they expect new hires to shell out the money for moving expenses and be reimbursed later?
In the first few years when my son was working, I twice had to lend him money for relocation expenses, even though he was going to be reimbursed, because he simply did not have enough money in the bank to pay for the plane tickets, local transportation, moving truck, etc. I wonder what happens to young people in the same situation who don’t have a family member who can advance them a thousand dollars or more and wait a few months for it to be repaid.
That firm may not have recruited there, but an MBA from Cal is pretty elite. Would that same go-getter have landed that investment banking job if his MBA was from Santa Clara?
The west coast has the UCs. Also, you don’t have to go to an elite school to do well in the technology field.
The CEO of Apple went to Auburn. From Auburn, he was able to go to Duke grad school.
Goldman Sachs recruits at many schools. I believe more than 70. Plus, GS recruits all over the world.
The financial world is based on “We are smarter than you so you should hire us”. The school is used as part of the proof of intelligence.
A friend of mine’s father owned 70 fast food restaurants. He wanted some expert advice. He brought in a financial guru. Some young guy. The guy went to one of the right schools. The father listened to the young guy and then he said…
“You have never run anything. You never ran a popcorn stand”.
Well, the definition of “elite” is apparently not absolutely defined on this thread. Some have completely eliminated any public schools “even flagships” as being an elite school, others have referred to a “few top State Research U’s,” others have referred to mid level LACs as being “elite,” etc.
And now we have folks talking about “elite” companies.
And what being able to afford plane tickets for spring break has to do with any of this is beyond me.
Marian- our new hires have two choices- we send you a check for a fixed amount (which includes a standard relo package plus the gross up for your taxes) and you call the movers, arrange for your futon to be dismantled, etc. If you are thrifty and have a lot of friends who can do the shlepping, and you end up driving a U Haul instead of hiring a mover- that’s your business. Or we pay for your out of pocket costs, in which case you will need to submit receipts before getting your check.
MOST undergrads prefer A. Unless someone is married (i.e. twice the stuff) or has some other complicated living arrangement, it is easier and more lucrative to take the package. If someone has a house (rare, but it happens- usually someone who did military service and then went to undergrad) they will do better with package B- but then we need receipts.
Mid-career folks have more options-- but then again, most employees at that stage have accumulated more stuff to move.
