Smith -- Disappointing aspects

august · February 6, 2005, 12:52pm

I’m starting this thread because too often on these boards I feel very defensive of Smith and I realized that the result is that I hardly ever say anything less than positive about it, even though I do have some criticisms. So I am just going to get some of these criticisms off my chest. I want to make it clear that I am NOT comparing Smith to any other college here. Also, I am going to mention only those aspects of Smith that left something to be desired IN MY EXPERIENCE, and I hope others will share their own experiences whether or not they are the same.

<li>5-COLLEGE CONSORTIUM OVERRATED. There, I said it. I think the 5-college consortium is a bit overrated. It is a big commitment to take a class at another college in the consortium. It’s not like the other colleges are right next door. If you want to take a class at another college, that means you definitely can’t take a class at Smith AT LEAST during the period before and the period after that because of all the travel time, and often this is just not feasible. You also may miss one of your meals, which are offered only during very limited periods of time each day. Mount Holyoke in particular is a significant distance away. With all the things you tend to be doing in college, it’s inconvenient to try to take a class at one of the other colleges.</li>
<li>INTELLECTUAL ATMOSPHERE. I guess I expected more from the intellectual atmosphere, outside the classroom. Yeah, you meet some people who are really into learning, but there are too many people who try to do the minimum necessary to get by, who are just interested in grades, who think it’s lame to talk too much about course material outside of class, who don’t actually seem to find anything interesting, etc. Now there are some wimpy little distribution requirements for anybody who wants to graduate with Latin honors, and a lot of students’ energy seems to go towards finding a way to fulfill them without really stretching themselves. These requirements are hard NOT to fulfill for anybody with a modicum of intellectual curiosity. A lot of students don’t want a challenge and don’t want to try anything new, and so they take advantage of the open curriculum to avoid stretching.</li>
<li>WHAT YOU MIGHT CALL “CODDLING”. It does happen at Smith. I knew people there who rarely turned in a paper on time because it’s so easy to get an extension. Some people learn to make excuses and the professors are so nice they usually accept the excuses rather than rock the boat. Professors need to get good evaluations from students, and they also don’t really want anybody to do poorly because Smith is all about empowering women and not letting them fail. This is especially true in the sciences, where at least some professors, especially in introductory courses, seem to be adopting strategies designed to increase women’s interest and success rate at the expense of rigor.</li>
<li>DIFFICULTY PREPARING FOR GRADUATE SCHOOL. It’s just hard because there are not necessarily enough high-level courses, since it’s a small college and there is no graduate school. Particularly in the sciences, the typical undergraduate preparation is not enough for a rigorous graduate program. You CAN go to UMass for some graduate courses, but … see #1 above.</li>
<li>STATISTICS ABOUT SCIENCES AT SMITH. By now we all know that 25% of Smith students major in sciences and that this is much higher than the rate for women at co-ed schools. I tried to find further information about this statistic because I am suspicious of it. (If anybody knows any more, please let me know.) But everything I have seen in Smith’s literature refers to psychology as a science. I really would consider this 25% statistic to be inflated if it included psychology majors. Come on, few life or physical scientists would consider psychology a science. Yes, psychology majors do have to take some science-related courses, but that doesn’t mean psychology IS a science. Furthermore, I don’t think there is any campus in the country that has a shortage of female psychology majors, so a large number of psychology majors at Smith is not impressive. I DO think it’s still something if the 25% statistic is being compared with statistics at other campuses where psychology is also being counted as a science, and if the Smith percentage is still so much higher. But I suspect that the 25% statistic in itself is misleading. (NOTE: THIS IS JUST A SUSPICION. IF ANYBODY KNOWS FOR SURE WHAT “SCIENCES” ARE COUNTED IN SMITH’S STATISTICS, PLEASE SHARE!)</li>
</ol>

emeraldkity4 · February 6, 2005, 1:18pm

It looks like Smith combines both the “soft” and “hard” sciences .
all these majors are listed in the "science " division

Astronomy Engineering Marine Science
Biochemistry Env. Science & Policy Mathematics
Biological Science Exercise & Sports Studies Neuroscience
Chemistry Geology Physics
Computer Science History of the Sciences Psychology

jyber209 · February 6, 2005, 4:29pm

Hi August,

Good points raised, and I appreciate your being forthright.

<h1>1 CONSORTIUM</h1>

I agree with you on some of the practical limitations of the consortium (point #1). My D is now in her third year at Smith and has yet to take a course elsewhere. For one thing, why bother schlepping to another campus when she finds plently of appealing courses available at Smith? (Oh, I need to make a correction – actually she did take a weekly evening seminar at UMASS, and she found it a bit of a pain to get there and back.) A lot of the time it takes does depend on the bridge work situation, apparently.

But regarding meals, I thought there was some reciprocation available for that – you get some kind of a voucher for a meal on the other campus. This may be old or dated info, but I do recall mention of it.

My D has, however, benefited from the many cultural opportunities available through the consortium – events and programs happening on any one campus are open to all. U MASS books some traveling Broadway shows that a smaller campus such as Smith would be unlikely to sponsor.

<h1>2 INTELLECTUAL ATMOSPHERE</h1>

I am sure the lack of core curriculum and distribution requirements does allow for some slackers to avoid some tough courses. There are pros and cons to the open curriculum. We told our D we wanted her to develop some kind of a core curriculum plan even tough it was not required by the school. So far we are satisfied with her course selections, and she has managed to take classes - most quite demanding - in each area.

Some people may avoid “stretching” not so much for lack of intellectual curiosity, as much as for protection of their GPA - looking towards grad school applications. I do not know the answer to this.

My D has found the intellectual atmosphere satisfying - said it was so refreshing to join people for a meal and routinely have a discussion on politics or world events – something not so typical in high school.

<h1>3 CODDLING</h1>

Interesting point about the coddling. We appreciated the support when our D came down with mono her second year. She was very ill and struggling to make it to classes. She always takes several credits above a full load, by the way. The infirmary notified her dean and the dean e-mailed each of her profs, filling them in on her condition. (My understanding is that this was not done at her initiative, but is routine procedure for a student who has been treated/diagnosed for something significant at the infirmary.) The profs in essence told D she would be responsible for all the work, but they would weigh the part of the semester when she was not ill a bit more heavily in her final grade. She was thinking of dropping one upper level languge elective course to focus on her others, but that prof suggested she just switch to pass/fail instead. (It was a class of only about five, and I guess the prof wanted every body!) She may have gotten some paper extensions. This enabled her to complete the semester without dropping any classes. Yes, this is not real world, but they did make it possible for her to remain enrolled in all her classes. Her grades still took something of a hit that semester, though.

<h1>4 GRAD SCHOOL PREP</h1>

This may depend on the field. I know my D has been well advised on the courses she should have under her belt for grad school in her field (economics). She is taking several classes beyond the requirements, in her major as well as in math, specifically so that she will be in a strong position for grad school.

<h1>5 SCIENCES</h1>

As for the sciences, an interesting point. I know in my day (decades in the past) psych was considered a science at my undergrad as well. That is because the school taught experimental psych (rats, etc.) rather than clinical psych (Freud, etc.) I think schools that focus on clinical psych might then lump it in with the social sciences, and those that focus on psych research, neuro stuff, etc. may consider it a hard science? I am not particularly informed on this but that is my guess. In any event, I appreciate your point.

ticklemepink · February 12, 2005, 4:57pm

Very nicely articulated. I am a first year at Smith looking to transfer for a stronger history department, more life on campus, and to be closer to home.

<ol>
<li>5-COLLEGE CONSORTIUM OVERRATED. That was the biggest lie that Smith ever told me. I wanted to take classes at Amherst but I found out that it was an HOUR bus ride to get there. I planned to take a class on Eastern European Jewish history at UMass this semester but realized that giving up my entire Tuesday and Thursday afternoons were not worth it. I have no patience as I am not from NYC or San Francisco. We need subways! I know it’s great to meet guys there… but guys who do come to Smith have my attention! I really like having the ability to see my professors anytime I want to- easily. Sigh.</li>
<li>INTELLECTUAL ATMOSPHERE. I was so happy coming to Smith where taking about school is actually FUN! It was lame to do it in high school so I had difficult conversations with my peers, eep. I agree that Smithies are very articulate about their opinions on intellectual topics such as philosophy, world situations, sociology, etc. As for Latin Honors, I agree. But hey, if you have the GPA to do so and enough S/U credits left, then save the S/U for those courses that you’re going to do bad in (like for me, the math requirement). As much as I am interested in others’ GPAs so I know where I stand, I don’t ask. Asking for others’ GPA just creates much more of a cutthroat competition, as it was in high school, from what I’ve learned. Yes, Smithies are obsessed about their GPAs. There ARE reasons to do so: 1) the recent increase in GPA requirement to go on Smith approved and its own study abroad programs to 3.0. 2) Latin honors, rumor has it that the GPA has to be 3.7 or better to assure yourself that you will get a cum laude. And 3) Graduate, law, and med schools. I am doing the Latin Honors just because I have that kind of intellectual curiosity to explore in every field. Clearly, I don’t want to stretch myself by taking calculus or stats but I am interesting in taking Linguistics in the fall because I am interesting in the mechanics of languages. I took astronomy last semester (FOR SCIENCE MAJORS!) because I was interested in the physics of the universe and wound up with a decent science grade, slightly better than back in high school! I wanted to take art history with Felder this semester but it conflicted with another class so I took up drawing instead. Not for Latin honors actually but more of a therapy for stress and it’s really helping me right now as I am taking it S/U and as a 5th course. Everything else is part of my plan. Truly, it is annoying to hear other Smithies who are phobic of a certain area because if you really let yourself loose and to explore, you just might be good at it after all. It’s interesting that Smithies are ambitious when it comes to doing things off-campus such as jobs, abroad, and internships but not quite so ON campus. Must be the environment or something like that.</li>
<li>WHAT YOU MIGHT CALL “CODDLING”. I’m loving it really. More like just taking advantage of it right now. What’s the next time I’m going to see this kind of attention? Hmmm maybe I should write my gov’t prof a note that I want an extension on that paper just because I’d like it checked over by Jacobson Center.</li>
<li>DIFFICULTY PREPARING FOR GRADUATE SCHOOL. Agreed. It is why I want to look for a stronger history department, the one that offers more seminars in topics that I’m more interested in. Currently, I am interested in majoring in Russian at Smith because it has everything that I really like but I plan on getting a masters in history later on because that is my true love! The history department is just not expansive enough. Smith history majors can easily graduate from Smith without ANY knowledge in Southeast Asian history becaise the department doesn’t offer it, shocking, shocking.</li>
<li>STATISTICS ABOUT SCIENCES AT SMITH. Trust me, psych majors annoy me the most. My AP Psych teacher basically told everyone in my high school that psychology is the number one major for people who enter college completely unsure of themselves. Psych is ridiculous to me, period. Just because it’s all common sense with vocabulary words to spiff it up. But I have met quite a number of dedicated bio, chem, and math majors. They just seem to be the happiest students on campus- science without men Yay for them.</li>
</ol>

However, prospectives, do NOT be discouraged!!! Smith isn’t for EVERYONE so take our gripes with a grain of salt :)

august · February 22, 2005, 1:02pm

Hey, I’m glad at least a couple of people sympathized with some of my points. ticklemepink, sorry to hear that you have not found the history department to be as strong as you wished. Good luck with your transfer.

<ol>
<li>consortium – Yeah, taking a class at another college ends up taking the whole afternoon. Also, prospective students should be aware of the Smith vs. 5-college offerings in different departments. For example, I believe astronomy is one major that cannot be completed at all without taking numerous courses at other colleges. For other areas of interest, as jyber209 points out, there are plenty of offerings at Smith.</li>
<li>atmosphere – I don’t know the solution to the problem either. All but a small minority of students obviously are going to have SOME concern with their GPA. I have heard of a few colleges where students don’t have grades, or where the grades exist but are not shown to students routinely (Reed, UCSC, St. John’s? – not sure about all of these). And this sounded appealing to me.</li>
<li>coddling – I definitely DO think that it is nice to be in an environment where you can tell your professor you were sick or had a personal problem or something without requiring a doctor’s note or signed affidavit – it’s no fun being treated like a criminal! I don’t think that Smith should change its policies, I just wish some people wouldn’t take too much advantage.</li>
<li>graduate school – I’ll agree that departments may vary on this. I think that at Smith there is definitely the potential to get a lot of advice from faculty, which is good. The course offerings may be a little lean, though, in certain areas, as ticklemepink seems to agree. </li>
<li>sciences – Interesting points!</li>
</ol>

stacy · February 23, 2005, 8:41pm

just to give an alternate opinion on the 5-college thing:

i’m taking a class at mt. holyoke and a class at amherst this semester. last year I took a different class at mt. holyoke, and last jterm I took a class at Hampshire.

A lot of times, you can find a Smithie who is driving to the college you want to go to, and get a ride with her. But even when you can’t, it is still doable to take 5 college courses…it requires patience and careful scheduling, it’s true, but I wouldn’t change the consortium for anything. I self-designed a minor that would have been much more difficult without it. And the consortium is a lot more than cross-registration…the ability to get materials from 4 extra libraries, try out for plays on other campuses, etc., is totally valuable to me.

Smith -- Disappointing aspects

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