So.. What DO I DO ?

Sharjeel92 · July 30, 2010, 3:35pm

This thread is important and a bit early because I need to choose what I want to do in order to pick either Pre-Med or Pre-Law OR start preparing for the LSAT or MCAT.

My Information:
International [Non-US citizen, No green card] Student.
My parents will be sinking all the money in my Undergrad education.

Current Course- First year Mechanical Engineering
Top Public University

About Me- Public speaking, Hardworking, Soccer and preplanned.

^^ So Medical School might/will be a good choice for me and which ever career path I take I will give it my 100%.

^^ Now I am torn between two choices both of which I like and I did try Shadowing or interning for a law firm. But I guess doing all three - Engineering (Hardcore, trust me!) + Shadowing + Law firm will be just too much for me to juggle and I don’t want to mess it up !.

My adviser tells me it is all up to me – and I don’t know which one to pick. So I am putting down a few parameter’s :-

1) No money, International – No federal aid. So basically scholarships (Which I will be working towards, by doing well in Engineering) and Loans. So Med/Law school which ever would provide me with the best support in higher education.

2) I know both these options seem to be SAFE career paths (in the sense that they pay well, but trust me I am happy just to touch the 100K mark and be happy at what I do and have no loans to repay). Because if I get motivated by money and go to law school and have no interest whatsoever in patents, then, trust me it gets very very boring.

Future plans for either careers:-

1) Work as an Engineer (get set with the prerequisite’ and Test scores), earn some money, get some experience and head to Grad(Med/Law) school.

2) Get Possible scholarships and head to Grad(Med/Law) School.
a) For med school – DO schools or Canadian MD schools. [Only with possible loan/scholarship options]

I need to hear both sides of the story and I would be grateful if someone else would give me their perspective.

GTalum · July 30, 2010, 3:38pm

Don’t declare a major and take a liberal arts curriculum for 2 years. Many schools encourage this. After 2 years, you declare a major.

intparent · July 30, 2010, 3:46pm

I don’t think that is what the OP is asking. He/she is saying they are set on an undergrad MechEng degree, and what should they do after that? Unlike most other majors, you can’t just start that major in junior year, you won’t get it done.

So assuming the Mech Eng degree is a given:

<ul>
<li>I tend to favor path #1, work to earn some money and then go to grad school. I assume any scholarships would be equally available whether you had taken a few years to work or not.</li>
<li>Seems like the patent law option ties most closely to your planned undergrad major. But to practice law in the US, I think you really need to go to law school here. However, have you considered an MBA? Your Mech Eng background, plus a few years of work experience could make you a highly desirable MBA program graduate. Plus, many MBA programs are two year programs (eg, U of Michigan), rather than the longer med school/law school route. So it would cost less.</li>
</ul>

thumper1 · July 30, 2010, 3:46pm

First…you need to know that scholarships for medical school are not very plentiful. You will be searching long and hard for these and may be unsuccessful. Most med school students are full pays…sorry. Law schools offer some aid but again, this is not a frequent occurance either.

It sounds like you haven’t even started undergraduate school yet and you are grappling with issues of professional school.

Here is my sage advice. There are no “premed or prelaw” majors. You can major in anything you choose and still take the MCAT or the LSAT. For medical school, you will want to take the prerequisite math and science courses needed for medical school.

You NEED to keep your undergraduate costs to a MINIMUM if you plan to attend professional school. If there is any way for you to complete your undergraduate degree at a school where you will have no or very minimal debt, that is what you should strive to do. Options to do so within your native country should also be explored if it will save you money. Medical schools and law schools in this country will cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars. Save your money for that if you plan to pursue that route.

As an international student, you are not eligible for the federally funded loans many professional students use to fund their programs. In addition, you will be paying top dollar as you will either be attending a private school OR a public university at out of state rates…both pricey.

So…first off, your PRIORITY should be to go to an affordable for your family school…get the best possible grades…and go from there.

Keep in mind also, MOST college students change their minds about their career paths MULTIPLE times while in college. You could too.

CalAlum · July 30, 2010, 3:49pm

Engineering majors at MIT commonly go into law school afterwards. It’s fairly common for an engineering graduate to do well on both the LSAT and the MCAT. In fact, there’s really no such thing as “pre-law.” You can take a couple of political science courses along the way, if you like. Did you know that patent law is one area of the law in which an engineering degree is a real plus?

You don’t need to commit to either path just yet. Take a first year of solid foundation courses and then talk with your faculty advisor in college.

Sharjeel92 · July 30, 2010, 3:51pm

^^ Thank you all for the quick response.

I am fully aware that there are no “premed or prelaw” majors. Just prerequisite’.

I again forgot to state in my post that I am a 100% sure that I will not be heading back to my native country for education. And I plan to stay/settle in the United states.

jkiwmom · July 30, 2010, 4:08pm

You are more apt to make some good money to save for grad school by going the Eng. route. My husband did just that — Mech. eng. degree from U. Wisc. ,then worked for General Motors right out of school for great pay which helped him save for his MBA (Thunderbird). Difficult decision…good luck!

Sharjeel92 · July 30, 2010, 4:34pm

@CalAlum - Thank you for the advice. I actually did know about the plus point of patent law (which is engineering) and it is one of the foremost reasons why I like it.

@jkiwmom - Thank you for sharing that. I really like the idea.

To all other members: I also need to take in to considerations the chance of me getting in to Law or Med school being an international.

I do not want to post results that I “might” get and base all this totally on assumptions.

So where do you think I might actually have a better shot ?.

Note :- I read a list of med schools that accept international students and the list is smaller than my day-to-day to-do list.

I know this process is a bit premature, but all of you have to realize that forty seven thousand dollars per year is a huge amount that my parents are sinking in from their lifetime of savings and I only get one shot to do this right and make the fullest use of coming all the way to the United States (Which I might add is a privilege and a dream for people from where I come from) for my education.

Also, I cannot be changing schools to reduce the cost of my undergrad education. Grad school is something that I plan to take full responsibility of.

cptofthehouse · July 30, 2010, 4:41pm

You are all over the map there. What schools are you considering? Or are you accepted already and on your way here?

As others have said, getting money for professional school like med and law school is difficult. Being international makes it more so, and the cost is very high.

Engineering is a very tough course of study, and the grades are often on a steep curve. I say this because grades are important for law and med schools, and many engineering majors have a problem if they want to go those directions because their transcripts don’t seem to be as stellar. You are not given much if any allowance for the difficulty of curriculum in admissions to these schools. So engineering is not a major I would advise for someone wanting to go into law or medicine unless the person truly has a vision of the direction he is going to take. Not just an idea, but a true desire and interest. I don’t get the feeling that you are there. You are looking at all kinds of possibilities,not committed to any one.

For law and medicine, take what ever courses you enjoy, do well and include the recommended/required courses. The grades, test scores will make the determination of whether you gain admittance.

thumper1 · July 30, 2010, 5:03pm

That’s all well and good…but until you have a green card or become a citizen, you will be paying out of state tuition or private school tuition for law or med schools…no federal loans available to you.

How do you plan to do this? There are precious FEW scholarships to law school and almost NONE for medical school. You will have to figure out how to get a couple HUNDRED THOUSAND dollars in loans for either med or law school. How do you propose to do this?

I believe your best plan is to get your engineering degree since you are dead set on doing so at great expense to your parents. Then work as an engineer, and perhaps save every penny you earn so you can fund law or med school down the road. You can attend law school part time/evenings…maybe once you are working as an engineer, you can consider that. Medical school is a full time endeavor.

ucsd_ucla_dad · July 30, 2010, 5:59pm

How do you know you’ll be able to work and live in the USA afterwards? You’d need a green card to do so and wouldn’t you need a company to sponsor you to work here? What will you do if you don’t get a green card - head back to your native country and work as an engineer there? If so, the gap, if you choose to have one, between getting the ME degree and going to law/med school might be a consideration.

At the end of the day, the engineering profession, the medical profession, and the law profession are all generally quite different and your advisor is correct - only you can determine which path you should follow.

sacchi · July 30, 2010, 7:22pm

I’m an engineer who works with a lot of patent lawyers. Most of the patent lawyers initially worked as engineers before deciding to go to law school. It ultimately makes them more marketable as patent lawyers.

ThePrincessBride · July 30, 2010, 11:06pm

Great. Another person who just wants to go to Med/Law School to make the big bucks. As if those professions aren’t saturated all ready…

Sharjeel92 · July 31, 2010, 1:09am

@cptofthehouse - Thank you. Although I do know engineering will be quite hardcore. I certainly cannot risk taking a Bio/Sociology major (which might be pretty disastrous as If I do not make it to med/law school. I am basically done)

I am heading to University of Michigan - Ann Arbor for fall 2010 for Mechanical engineering. I have already spoken to my adviser who helped me get me engineering classes.

@thumper1 - I think trying to get in to grad school (and if I do, with scholarships or student loans) and keeping the option of working as an engineer things could work out.

@ucsducladad- Sir, I do the job situation in the United states. Getting a H1B visa would be difficult but the adviser at the school told me If I make it in to any respectable/decent company, I would certainly get a Visa (I guess there is some hope there) – this is only if I consider to take up a job as an engineer.

Now, for grad school I would have to follow the same process which I did for my Undergrad visa and after graduation I would have about a years period to stay in the United States to get a Job and to get the employer to sponsor for my H1B visa. Once I am on the H1B visa, I can apply for a green card.

In the end if nothing works out – As one of the CC member suggested on a thread. The fastest and easiest way to get a green card would be getting married to a US citizen. [I jope that I would never have to take this path !]

@sacchi - Thank you. I sent a mail to a law firm and they said, I could become a patent agent by writing the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) patent agent exam. By this I would become a patent agent and I would work for a Law firm. By 1-2 years the law firm usually pays the employee to go to law school. Which is great as I will become an attorney then and have much more responsibilities.

The engineering path too is good.

@ThePrincessBride - With all due respect. If I really wanted BIG BUCKS. Then I would stay in Engineering, work for 2-3 years (earn 130-203,000 dollars totally during the 2-3 year period) , get an MBA after than and have decent salary of 100-150,000 per year in Engineering management.

Now If I go to med school – I would have to go to grad school which means no earnings + loans (which would result of me loosing 403,000$ as I would not be working + interest would inflate my losses to a nice 500K$).

Then comes residency during which in the first two years the pay would be less and my loans will keep on increasing. By the time I become a resident I would start paying my loans.

I plan to become a General surgeon which like many medical fields makes doctors **** in their pants because of the fear of malpractice. That is where Plantiff Lawyers (Personal Injury law) makes their money.

Above all the financial losses, I would have no social life. In the end it is your compassion and your interest which will drive you through this process and If you don’t have that. Then I guess you will be screwed.

So if I really wanted BIG BUCKS. Then I would stay in engineering !.

Olymom · July 31, 2010, 1:28am

My word, you are ambitious. At the same time, I hope you make it as far as you like. You might also check out Canadian options. I do know there are some medical school cost forgiveness for doctors who are willing to work in remote areas. That is not for everyone but it can be important service.

BunsenBurner · July 31, 2010, 2:32am

I like your attitude. Most of the patent attorneys I know worked for quite a few years in their field before heading off to Law School, so your plan of getting an H1B visa and working here is a good one as long as there is someone willing to hire you. Even if you take the Patent Bar exam, don’t count on being hired as a patent agent and get your firm pay for your tuition. Law firms are feeling the financial squeeze, and there are plenty of freshly minted lawyers who already passed the Bar looking for jobs that you will be competing with.

To become a US Patent Agent or Patent Attorney, you will need to meet certain immigration status and educational requirements as set forth by the USPTO. Here is the website that you need to take a close look at:

[Exam</a> Registration](<a href=“http://www.uspto.gov/ip/boards/oed/exam/registration.jsp]Exam”>http://www.uspto.gov/ip/boards/oed/exam/registration.jsp)

I interact with IP attorneys often. The job of a patent agent/lawyer is not as glorious as you might think. Sometimes you will have to deal with really brilliant yet very stupid and overly ambitious clients who think that you know squat about engineering and/or patent law. There is a lot of gruntwork involved and you will have TONS of formalities and paperwork to deal with. When you start as a Jr associate in a law firm, you will have to meet their requirement of 1800-2000 “billable hours” per year (if your dealing with a tough case, you might have to work 3 hours per each hour your firm will bill your client; otherwise, the client will get ticked off by the astronomical bill). You will have to pull overnighters because of someone else’s procrastination to meet the filing deadlines. But if you become a partner or get an in-house position, your life will become a bit easier. Good luck! :)

thumper1 · July 31, 2010, 8:14am

Ahem…That amount would be your TOTAL over three years, not your annual salary. Please understand that at LEAST 1/3 of that will go to taxes and social security (if you work in the U.S). Another goodly chunk will go towards you living expenses (rent, utilities, clothing, food, etc). It’s not like you’ll be able to save every nickel of your salary for use at a later time.

You will be “out” your salary AND you will be paying tuition to go to medical school. Once more…I’m going to say this…there are NOT generally scholarships to medical school. Most medical students are FULL PAYS at their medical schools. You will also have to factor in housing/food/utilities/personal expenses, etc. Medical school is expensive. You will not be able to save the total cost of paying for medical school on your entering engineering salary for two years or even three. Remember while you are working as an engineer, you will still have living expenses.

I think your financial plan is not well thought out. You seem to think that the money for medical school or law school is going to be dropped at your feet somehow. While a small minority of students do find some way to have someone else pay for these professional schools, the VAST MAJORITY pay the full price to attend…and it is NOT inexpensive.

Please get your financial facts straight before delving into a situation that will simply not be financially realistic.

You sound motivated to do “something” but I’m not quite sure what and it sounds like you aren’t either. Could be engineering, could be law school, could be med school. You are a high school student. Just note, at the end of the day…it might not be any of the above!! You could totally change your mind as many college students do.

The attrition rate in engineering programs is very high. There are a LOT of students who start off on an engineering track in college and switch to something else. DD just completed her engineering degree. She says that less than 1/2 of the students who started with her ended up getting degrees…and she went to a smaller private school with a LOT of individual attention…and a highly regarded engineering program.

P.S. I know a number of degree holding folks working at law firms. They are NOT being paid to attend law school.

Sharjeel92 · July 31, 2010, 11:43am

@BunsenNurner : Thank you for the advice.

@thumper1 : I think you misunderstood me. I mean to tell the poster ThePrincessBride that I don’t want to get in to Med school for the money and It would actually take a lot of time for me to earn money.

Then I would stay in Engineering, work for 2-3 years (earn 130-203,000 dollars totally during the 2-3 year period) –> I am aware that this would be a total not annual salary

Iit was not my financial plan, but just a few things that might happen if someone goes to med school (it is a stereotype). It is not my plan !

Thank you once again !

hadsed · July 31, 2010, 12:29pm

Just to give you a bit of confidence, my family and I are from one of those war-torn foreign countries and all five (five!!) of my uncles are very successful in various parts of the world. The youngest has done what you are doing, and although he preferred graduate school to professional school, he’s pretty successful now ten years on. Never underestimate the connections you can make and how they can help you. For internationals this is especially important because you can learn a lot from people who live here, if nothing else. Forty grand a year is a lot, and your ambition shows that you know how much that means to you and your family.

Keep on researching your financial options, it will do you a lot of good. Read read read all you can about scholarships, grants, career paths, read some blogs, whatever. There’s money out there, albeit a lot less for kids in your situation, but it’s there you just have to find it. Talk to people, most people are happy to share their knowledge.

People like you have come through and done what you’re trying to do. All they did was work really hard. Do that, and you’ll get to where you want to be. Good luck.

Sharjeel92 · August 1, 2010, 12:33am

@Hadsed : Thank you for them motivation. I am trying to be as optimistic as possible. There are about 80-150 students )International) that make in to med school every year and I am going to fight my way in to med school by working hard.

Cornell has many scholarship programs and I am trying to fulfill the rquirements and try to get some money from there !

So.. What DO I DO ?

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