^Agreed.
(And btw, to whomever refrereced it, the complaint was not that juice is $4/gallon. MILK is $4 gallon.)
I understand the point about low income consumers having inferior shopping choices, but I don’t get the “health beverages” part.
IMO, water is the only healthy beverage there is.
Here is a summary of my beverage intake -
Breakfast - coffee, water
Lunch - water
Dinner - water and/or wine
Occasional treat - orange juice diluted with water (80% Water, 20% OJ)
Plus the occasional martini, screwdriver, White Russian…
Beer while watching a sporting event
Soft drinks? Never
In all seriousness, what healthy beverages are there, aside from water?
You may need more filling beverages if your meal is not nutritious. Or maybe water is ok with you since you get to drink something more interesting at other meals. We eat very healthy. I drink water with all my meals but my D wants more interesting drinks from time to time. Not soda. Some fancy fruit juice sweetened something or other costing a few dollars for 12 oz. I agree that to budget you need disposalable fund. Otherwise, you are jumping from one emergency to another, costing more.
“Maybe it is something you teach in school. How to eat healthy on little money from the corner store.”
The local community center offered a free meal preparation class for low-income families where they would meet once a week, learn some tips and cook a meal to share. The women found it so helpful that they begged the center to offer it again the next session. And again. It’s now a regular offering. Many of the centers also offer a teen cooking class and an “Iron Chef” style cook off against other centers at the end. This program too is very popular. I do think that most low income people want to have better options, but they’re not always easy to find. Again,if the nearest full-service grocery store is two bus rides and 30-50 minutes away, it’s not very easy to do your shopping for those healthy choices, and without home ec, not everyone even knows how to cook healthily.
It’s very different if you’ve grown up well-off and are poor by choice while in grad school but still have a car and the time and knowledge to shop and cook with low-cost foods than if you really, truly have no grocery store near you, no car, and no background in knowing what to do with the limited foods you CAN get. Lots of judgement in this thread. Not surprising, but still.
@cobrat said that people have evolved craving salty and sweet things for thousands of years. Yes, but CRAVED is the operant word. The actual quantities of salt/sugar in the diet worldwide during this evolution were minute during most of human history compared to the deluge now. Salt in minute quantities is necessary, and high-calorie sugar and fat was advantageous to hunter-gatherers/agriculturalists who experienced cycles of feast and famine. But at no time in human history have these ingredients been so readily available and stuffed into almost everything we eat. Added salt was a rarity, extremely hard to come by in most societies. How many people in the world 500, 1000, 10,000 years ago (and that’s recent human evolution) had access to concentrated products of sugar cane, beet sugar, corn sugar or rice sugar at each and every meal? Read labels and you will find it now in everything, from salad dressing to tomato sauce and meat products. This is apart from the double-whammy of our recently sedentary lifestyles.
Do I eat quinoa, kale, etc every meal? Pretty much, but just because of my OWN dietary problems. Am I a food snob? You decide: When I returned from the Peace Corps, I could not stand the judgemental veganism of hipper peers around me (though I am mostly vegan myself other than fish.) Who are these people to judge, who have 65 different types of grains and legumes at their fingertips, imported from around the world on any given day…Do they realized that lots of folks in arid parts of the world survive only because of goats and sheep foraging semi deserts?
Where we live now, there’s not a Whole Foods store (or anything like it) for two hours in any direction, though we do have a few organic foods in our local supermarket. My daughter and husband do not eat kale and quinoa every day…I have to cook for myself separately. I try to keep DD on the healthy side… but yes, she is known at times to eat pizza. hamburgers, ravioli, cake, ice cream and (on extremely rare occasions like her recent birthday party) soda. I have even let her stoop (oh my!) to Chic Fillet and MacDonalds. But it’s not an everyday or every week expectation on her part.
My main point of reference is not the Whole Foods crowd, but habits inherited from my late parents, both of whom grew up poor in the depression, and raised us thriftily on simple, traditional home-cooked meals. My mom, a workaholic teacher who also sewed all our clothes (with sister and I) and no time to spare, would cook vats of homemade bean/vegetable soups and whole-wheat bread on the weekend to supplement the very small amounts of beef , chicken and eggs we ate during the week. We usually ate some form of leftovers or variations of this soup day after day with a little fruit because everyone was busy. It was tasty, if a little boring. They kept a small vegetable garden. We never had soda, chips or fries. My parents considered themselves conservative, old-South in many ways (but with a quiet,humanitarian bent.) They would be amused today to think these frugal habit would be considered elitist.
Other than food deserts (which ARE a problem) I don’t see how we can justify the idea that everyone should be “entitled” to daily rations of sodas and other processed foods, provided by food stamps, as a way of life. Why not tackle the roots of the nutrition problem, not perpetuate it by promoting bad habits ?
Yet, @sherpa, you have chosen your “poison” have you not in the form of coffee and alcohol? Some people choose soda. Soda sure isn’t healthy but its not heroin, either. It’s not EVIL.
Do you know what one of the most recession/depression proof consumable goods is? Candy. When your life is crappy, it’s nice and comforting to have little treats to look forward to. For a person who is poor, that’s not going to be some nice vacation or a dinner in a fancy restaurant or even a Martini or some fancy coffee drink. It’ll probably be some soda, chips, or candy to look forward to at the end of the day or week, something easily obtainable at the corner store on your way home from work and something that is comforting in possibly a nostalgic way and, yes, in a base way because it tastes good and tons of money has been spent by corporations making sure it tastes good and marketing the heck out of it. I’m not saying its the best decision, just human nature. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/24/nyregion/24candy.html
Our school district (a very large one across all income groups) has taken soda out of the schools entirely due to the concern over overconsumption and childhood obesity.
@inthegarden You make some very good points. I grew up with parents raised in the depression also. We never had sodas in our house, ever. Mom made a pitcher of iced tea or we had water with our meals. We had a vegetable garden and Mom made a big pot of vegetable soup often that we would eat on for days. This instilled some very good habits in her children. Three meals a day, but no snacking.
“Our school district (a very large one across all income groups) has taken soda out of the schools entirely due to the concern over overconsumption and childhood obesity.”
Schools have also banned party treats and such from classrooms butI’m not sure how much these kinds of policies really help. We grew up with that kind of stuff yet didn’t have the obesity and other health issues that exist today. The soda in those machines are just replaced with Dasani bottled tap water, sports drinks, and the like. The issues are more complicated than that. School room lunches, despite Michelle Obama’s focus are atrocious. We used to have women in the lunch room cooking from scratch. Although we often complained about it, it wasn’t that bad in retrospect. Now, all school cafeteria workers do is heat up and serve processed foods. It’s not that much different than prison food (which is super gross, too, and shouldn’t be).
@doschicos - “Yet, @sherpa, you have chosen your “poison” have you not in the form of coffee and alcohol? Some people choose soda. Soda sure isn’t healthy but its not heroin, either. It’s not EVIL.”
Yes, clearly I prefer my vices to soft drinks. Did I suggest that soft drinks are evil?
@doschicos - We had cooked from scratch school lunches also, not the pre-cooked and then microwaved stuff they serve now. (I wonder why schools eliminated the school kitchen). Anyway, we definitely did not have soda.
At some point, soda went from being a ‘treat’ to an everyday drink.
I would think it’s much cheaper to serve processed food in school lunch. Instead of 10 cooks, one can opener will do. Didn’t we cut school budget to make them efficient?
Cheaper maybe initially but there are a lot of hidden costs not factored in as there are in a lot of government processes, policies, etc. (energy policy, for example)
Crappy, processed school lunches might be cheaper in terms of the initial outlay but what about the hidden costs of unhealthy kids? Kids whose tastebuds are now acclimated to crap instead of real food?
@sherpa The evil comment wasn’t directly solely to you, just the general tone on this thread that drinking soda is sooooo wrong. @tating I do agree, though, that frequency (no longer a treat) is an issue as is serving size which is wacky. In my childhood it was small glass bottles, not served by the school, but coke machines were around.
It seems that the ideal is for children to learn healthy eating habits from their families in their homes. I don’t really think that whether or not the school has a soda machine is going to change things much for the kids who have well ingrained healthy habits that they have learned from their parents, that is probably ultimately stronger though I do generally support not having them in schools. I do think schools can play a role and possibly fill in the gap for kids that aren’t learning healthy habits at home. I live near Detroit and there are some programs in some of the schools that combine gardening with in school programs utilizing the food and teaching healthy habits. I think a well run program like that could be effective because of the participatory level of the students.
It seems to me that soda, fast food, processed food, etc. have evolved in the span of my lifetime from things that were meant to be occasional treats to foods that are seriously over consumed and are contributing to a lot of the health problems of the people of our country. I think a lot of that can be attributed to aggressive marketing. There is a lot of money tied up in all of these unhealthy foods and there are a lot of forces working against trying to reduce consumption and therefore profits. The book “Sugar Salt Fat” goes into depth on this subject and is worth reading. My point is that it is not that easy to go against that, especially considering the other forces at work that have been mentioned in this thread- lack of access to better alternatives, lack of education and resources, etc.
Just look at over time how juice has been heavily marketed to be healthy, it’s only fairly recently that it’s been recognized that it’s probably not any healthier than soda, but I think the perception in the general public is still that it is healthy. When I was growing up we had a small glass of OJ with breakfast but now there are kids that drink large quantities of juice throughout the day and the parents think it is a healthy drink. I’ve been appalled by some of the poor eating habits of some of my affluent and well educated friends who should have access to better information.
I get the pull and comfort of candy…( had my bout of candy addiction in my thirties…lol, the corner store person told me she had never met an ADULT who ate so many sweet-and-sour lollipops. But I DID pay, and pay big later, with tooth decay and hypoglycemia.)
Not saying we should be so condescending as to make choices for low-income people; to dictate the ruling out of candy or soda from anyone’s lives. But comforting or not, candy and soda and LOTs of things are not necessities. (Thousands of generations have survived and thrived without it) and candy is not the only path to comfort. On my tax dime (I don’t mind if it’s a hefty tax dime) if anyone needs a hand-up, I vote to feed people in the way that bodies most likely need to be nourished, with basic foodstuffs. And healthcare. And education. And public libraries. Is it so condescending to draw the line at soda and candy? They are small, understandable near-universal vices, but they are extras.
Clearly, there are people in the U.S. too cash-strapped to buy candy without food stamps, but I doubt many could never afford a moderate amount on a regular basis. I live in a town that is among the most economically depressed in my state, and I see tons of rough-around-the-edges folks smoking cigarettes and buying Cokes from machines (all a lot more expensive than candy, unless you’re talking Toblerone or binging home bagsful of Three-Muskateers every single day). A bit of candy from the Dollar Store is just not that expensive. Really, really want it? Then, sounds harsh, but find a way to procure this modest treat yourself. Decide: do I spend that extra dollar on a few cigarettes, a bag of candy to ration, bus fare to the library or park, a few apples, a coloring book for my kid,? Life just IS hard for a lot of people and there’s no way to make it totally fair, but my vote is to subsidize the real foodstuffs, bring in Farmer’s markets, and urban gardening and health care, and decent housing, in my mind, a human right. The candy? Not so much. Figure out a way to get it yourself if that’s what you want.
My family has hosted children from low-income neighborhoods of NYC through the Fresh Air Fund several times. We were told by FAF, not to try to change the food habits of these children in the very short time in our homes, but to adapt to them. So, I always called their parents to learn their favorite foods to have on-hand, their breakfast cereals, their favorite brands of mac and cheese, chicken nuggets, etc. (Boy, was my daughter jealous!) I did draw the line on everyday soda, though provided it very occasionally. And you know what? I really don’t think these pre-processed foodstuffs were, on the whole, cheaper than the basic things I regularly cook.
To people’s defense (at least partially) our government doesn’t have a good track record on doling out advice regarding food and nutrition. Eggs and butter used to be dissed but are now recognized as being okay for many, focus on fats being bad and now its sugar, the whole misguided food pyramid…
You do make good points, @inthegarden, and I don’t disagree with many of them but you points also make obvious how complicated the issue is and, at least to me, the small amount spent on junk food is a drop in the bucket compared to the other issues re: food and nutrition in America. I do think a major overhaul is needed. Restricting what qualifies for SNAP could be a part of that but wouldn’t be at the top of my own priority list.
“I really don’t think these pre-processed foodstuffs were, on the whole, cheaper than the basic things I regularly cook.” I don’t think it is either. It’s cheaper to cook healthy food but, as mentioned before, there are access, educational, and experience issues at work.
Somewhat related, I read this article last week and thought it was interesting:
http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/an-adorable-swedish-tradition-has-its-roots-in-human-experimentation
DS is in his late 20s. His pediatrician was clear with me that juice is sugar water and not healthful. It’s not news.
People like soda. Nothing evil about that, but SNAP shouldn’t pay for it, and I’m ok with taxing it higher - regular or diet soda. Two uncontroversial corollaries to the law of supply and demand is that if you subsidize something you get more of it, and if you tax something you get less of it.
Dave Ramsey is not everyone’s cup of tea, but his advice on getting out of debt is pretty good. And his dietary advice when getting out of debt is rice and beans, rice and beans. I don’t listen to him, maybe he also recommends peanut butter. But when you are in a hole, luxuries are off limits. Chocolate and soda and chips and lobster and truffle oil and whiskey are not evil, but are not things that should be a regular part of your diet when you are digging out of debt, or using taxpayer money to feed yourself. What you buy when you have enough money for luxuries is none of my business.
So 99 cent/gallon is now luxury? I think my water filter costs more than that.
What do adults and kids see when they watch football or basket ball games? M&M candies, Snickers bars, Coke, Pepsi, burgers, chips,…
99c a gallon is a luxury if you are broke. So is a water filter.