<p>Congrats, Hanna.</p>
<p>Hanna: Best Wishes!</p>
<p>@aih, I vowed I wasn’t going to broach the subject again, but since I was the person who first used the phrase “a bit of a princess,” I would like to point out that I <em>also</em> said that the young woman in question seemed to be fine with that, and that was good. I also said that I had no doubt she would find a young man who would love to treat her in the manner she wishes. In other words, I am all for people being open about who they are and what they want when entering into marriage, and I am all for women being empowered about being who they are and who they want to be.</p>
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<p>I don’t think delaying a marriage to save up for a wedding is a bad thing and I don’t find anything objectionable about saving up for a ring as long as it’s what both parties desire. IMO it’s important for two people who are planning on getting married to figure out if they have a similar approach to spending. If they have entirely different views (one is a miser and the other isn’t)–that doesn’t bode well for the relationship. I think it’s really important for couples to learn about these differences early on because finances can create big problems in a marriage. </p>
<p>Hanna, congrats! I am sure you will find a reasonable middle ground. :)</p>
<p>I think the word ‘princess’ comes to mind when someone expects or demands something valuable (e.g. a 2 carat diamond) as evidence of the guy’s commitment, sincerity and solvency, but would be horrified at the suggestion that she should be making any big gesture in return. I don’t think it is like that in the case above, but it is a common enough situation.</p>
<p>When a woman wants something she is being a princess, but when it’s a guy, he is a go getter, a man who knows what he wants. How often have we seen a guy expecting certain things from a woman, sometimes it is not material or monetary, but nevertheless certain expectations for him to marry a woman. As a society, we view that as the norm and we are so critical when it comes to a woman. </p>
<p>I personally think D1’s request for a decent diamond ring is a lot easier to fulfill than a life time of taking of the house and children, yet it is something a lot of men would expect and it is something they don’t even have to ask for.</p>
<p>My requirement for consenting to marriage was agreement and support for my desire to be a stay at home mom. I dropped out of law school to get married. I never intended to be a lawyer, just making my parents happy. And meeting more potential fathers of my future children. ; )</p>
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<p>Well, not me. I do not admire men who acquire trophy wives, for example.</p>
<p>“trophy wife” </p>
<p>Yet another interesting way women label other women. ; )</p>
<p>Consolation: I really don’t intend to be picking on you. : ( Lately I’ve been paying attention to the labeling that goes on here, especially my own, and how it colors what I see.</p>
<p>adding: labels are a way to distance ourselves from others imho. … the opposite of emilybee’s “can I be in both groups?” While defining trophy wife might be entertaining, what does it accomplish? For me, this thread is an interesting counterpoint to the recent “are you a feminist?”</p>
<p>We are not talking about trophy wives. How many of us working women still did the big bulk of housework and childcare, and the men didn’t even have to ask, it was often assumed. </p>
<p>D1 is having a very open, honest discussion with her BF about their careers, childcare, housework, finance, religion (he is a Catholic and she is not religious, but she will get married in a church to make his grandmother happy). She told him that she expected to send her kids to private schools. He has said that he wanted some time and money to pursue his music interest. I know in the last few years they have run into few snags, but at the end they have found ways to compromise. Life throws us a lot of curve balls. We can’t always anticipate what could happen in the future, but to be able discuss some of those issues before marriage is a good start.</p>
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I think you are exactly right about this. And those discussions should include absolutely anything that is important to one of the partners. If it’s a specific ring or anything else. My future son-in-law, for example, has always said that he expects his child to be signed up for Little League. this is important to him. My daughter knows that. My daughter is a teacher. She is adamant that her children attend private school. He knows that. they are now deciding about their religious home. He is very Catholic, she is very Protestant. They are communicating respectfully and being open to each other’s experiences. I am confident they will get to a great solution. My husband and I are not career people. We are all about the kids, and discussed every detail of our parenting priorities before the oldest was born. We have other issues, but in 25+ years of parenting, we have never been off the same page. I am all about communication prior to marriage.</p>
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<p>A guy who demands an expensive gift from a woman is never referred to as a go getter.</p>
<p>I guess it’s possible sometimes a ring is just a ring. </p>
<p>“when it’s a guy, he is a go getter, a man who knows what he wants. How often have we seen a guy expecting certain things from a woman, sometimes it is not material or monetary, but nevertheless certain expectations for him to marry a woman.”</p>
<p>Agree with sorghum – that is not my experience at all. A man who said “I won’t marry a woman unless she does X or Y for me” would not be a “go-getter” in my community. A man without a woman in his life might say, “I want to find a woman who’s as educated or as accomplished as I am,” but that’s very different from setting up some bar for a girlfriend to reach before she’s marriage material, which is what we’re talking about here.</p>
<p><em>I</em> am not applying the label “trophy wife” to women. Society is. I should have put quotation marks around it. It is simply one example of men demanding that their wife have certain attributes.</p>
<p>If you don’t want to pick on me, then stop. Try assuming good intentions, rather than playing gotcha with someone who you know damned well doesn’t mean what you are trying to make it mean.</p>
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<p>I totally agree, and that is why I <em>said</em> that it is a good thing that your D is honest with herself and her BF about what she wants. (It has become very clear to me that I view being what <em>I</em> would call “a bit of a princess” as harmless, while others consider it a mortal insult. Believe me, that was not my intent!)</p>
<p>But while I find it perfectly reasonable and wise for people to communicate before marriage about how and where they think they will want to live in the future, I think it is absolutely essential to recognize that life throws curveballs, as you say. People become ill, people become disabled. Do people really mean it when they take a vow “for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health”? I think they need to think about that, too.</p>
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Oh really? I think you are splitting hair here. I want to find a woman who is as educated (ivy league educated) or as accomplished (a harvard law degree) as I am is no different than a man who has some bar for a girlfriend to reach before she is marriage material. What do you think “as educated or as accomplished as I am” is? That is not some sort of bar? I would say a woman could be just as good of a companion (partner) without being just as educated or accomplished as their SO. So to ask for a ring is being callous, but to demand a woman to be at par educational or career wise is well thought of and acceptable.</p>
<p>I always thought the term “trophy wife” was a slur against the husband who was so shallow and insecure that he needed a beautiful woman to show off his value to his buddies. After all, when a hunter has a trophy head hung on his wall, it reflects on the hunter, not on the poor elk. </p>
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<p>There’s a difference between demanding what is an item of conspicuous consumption or display of wealth and finding attributes which shows one has compatible values/interests…such as demonstrating serious interest in higher education. </p>
<p>Educations also have the potential to being parlayed into expanding future earnings which benefit both spouses. The most which could be said about the diamond ring is it could be sold for the same/slightly higher price if economic necessity dictates and the necessity isn’t time sensitive. If the latter isn’t the case, then one may need to pawn it at a substantial loss in the form of holding fees if the item is claimed back or because are businesses which need to make a profit off of the pawned items if the pawner is unable to claim the item back.</p>
<p>That and the higher education costs are often borne by the student and/or his/her parents. There isn’t nearly as widespread of a cultural expectation that the BF/GF or spouses pay for the educational expenses of the other as much as the man being expected…especially in upper/upper-middle class communities to ante up for a large diamond ring costing at least as much as a year’s worth of full-pay tuition at a private college. </p>