I can make his case. He works a very physically demanding job and a second job despite being quite obese. He makes very good money and has one of those (literal) million dollar pensions that come state and city tax free, along with lifetime gold-plated medical, dental and prescription coverage. He will retire at 54 after working hard, saving and investing prudently and raising three kids. His wife works long hours and he does much of the cleaning and almost all of the errands related to the family and eats his wife’s cooking with gusto. He is a very involved, hands-on father. He doesnt’ drink, he doesn’t smoke, he doesn’t gamble. He golfs with his son, enjoys a boys’ weekend in Baltimore every summer to see the Red Sox with his son because it’s cheaper than Boston. Takes his daughter to a NASCAR race weekend every summer. Does most of the laundry. Is tired of the cold and the snow and the pace of life here, so he saves and dreams and hopes that in his mid-50s when D1 will have a master’s degree with no residual debt, D2 will have a bachelor’s with her Stafford loans per her agreement based on her situation and no other debt for anyone, son will be in college (God willing) he can finally enjoy the fruits of his labor. When he retires he can immediately make the downpayment on said condo and the payments will be a fraction of the various educational costs while the kids were growing up. The budget will barely notice it. He would say that he’s earned it and will enjoy it, as his wife and kids really could. Strange wife he has. Kid has two student clarinets, but it’s not enough for them. They want a greally good one, which seems very strange. It’s all squeaking. Weirdo and her weirder mother sat and cried while the kid played clarinet at Carnegie Hall. Sometimes when she’s upset or sick he will sit and play for her and she is transported. It’s all squeaking and there is no need for another clarinet. But what she could do is retire and move to a condo in a sunny place and never work another day in her life. we have he money, and my pension will take care of her. She doesn’t need to earn her own money.</p>
<p>I’m not saying you’re being stubborn on the clarinet. I find that such a non issue it’s not worth getting flustered over. I believe in this case he needs to not make a big deal over it since it means so much to you and your son. If I were a judge - I’d find in favor of you.</p>
<p>Where I say you are being stubborn is that he wants to move and you’re saying fine go, I’m not going, when you know he won’t want to be there without you. You two are on different pages with retirement. If I were a judge - I’d send you two to mediation.</p>
<p>But all relationships are different. I don’t have this issue at all, so it’s hard to imagine. </p>
<p>I’m not a huge fan of government intervention telling us how we can live our lives. However, enough people have been screwed over with marriage partners siphoning off money and leaving the other high and dry that I get why you’d at least want the spouse to know.</p>
<p>On a totally different topic - I was surprised when we went to renew my dd’s passport that both of us had to be there just to renew. She can fly internationally alone without a problem, but can’t go with one of us without the others signature. And I get the kidnapping part of it, but I didn’t remember us both having to be there for the passport last time.</p>
The reason for that is that most people don’t retire at 54. I’ll be only 53. It isn’t prudent for me to take all those years of zeroes in my social security while not being able to contribute to my 401-K. I would be on board with retiring together at 62, but I think stopping working that early is irresponsible and I would like to spend that decade working, earning my money at a time when I can spend it on ourselves because the kids will be grown. We’ve been parents since our early 20s. Oh, and my profession doesn’t really translate, so I’d be leaving a well-paying job I mostly love to go to a place with no family or friends and no job. Just doesn’t make sense to me. But since he will be retired, I would support him in spending time there, meeting people, putting down roots, but I won’t give up a decade of prime earning power for that. My position is to want to stay here and live well, maybe travel. His is to leave here and stop working. The middle ground is to buy the condo and be there part of the year while i work and we make the transition gently and in a better time.</p>
<p>Actually, my perspective on this particular issue is from seeing many families…including upper-middle class families of friends and older colleagues at my first few jobs do similar/same things with their finances as the OP thinking everything is going to be a-ok…and then end up in a huge financial mess some years later because of unforeseen circumstances which prevent timely repayments. Either that or this type of loan encourages them to take out more such loans because they want to get “just one more high-ticket item” that is discretionary spending such as a high-ticket gift for their kids. </p>
<p>In one of the extreme cases, an upper-middle class Long Island family I know from a colleague bought so many high ticket presents for their only child through loans of this type and others that when the time came for college admission…family finances were so debt-ridden with the additional whammy of snowballing interest & penalties that the child ended up having to turn down several fine colleges…including Cornell on a half-scholarship to attend a local directional SUNY. </p>
<p>To worsen matters, he ended up having to extend his time in college and take out large loans with my colleague’s parents’ signatures because his family’s credit was wreaked at that point. </p>
<p>By the time I became friends with the colleague, the student in question was just about to graduate after 7+ years of being a part-time student with some semesters taken off for full-time barely minimum wage work and the colleague was fretting about whether timely loan payback from the student was feasible given the student’s low academic performance from stressing about his/family’s financial situation, taking so long to graduate, lack of professional demeanor/work skills due to not having some working experience before college, and having no relevant internships/job experience due to those issues. </p>
<p>Moreover, his parents were in no position to help as they were overwhelmed with paying back the debts, fending off creditors/bank/government bureaucrats, and worrying about having to work well-past retirement age to survive despite being professionals with relatively high incomes and living in one of the most nicest parts of Nassau County. </p>
<p>Life is unpredictable enough that being hit with a financial curveball at some point in one’s life is not a matter of if…but when…even if one happens to be the most obsessed about saving and avoiding imprudent financial decisions such as taking out risky/sketchy loans except as an absolute last resort for serious emergencies. </p>
<p>It’s worse when the root causes of that curveball could have been prevented through avoidance of taking out such risky/sketchy loans unless it is an absolute last resort type for serious emergencies such as unexpected serious family medical expenses.</p>
<p>zooser you are correct my spouse does not have to sign off on my pension loan. The difference is that the loan payback is automatic as it comes from my paycheck or if I retire the retirement check. You also can only borrow 50% of the amount contributed. My taking a pension loan adds no risk to my spouse receiving her share of my pension if something was to happen to me.</p>
<p>A defined benefit pension and a 401k lead to two completely different retirement situations. With the pension amount that I contribute there is a point that I work for almost nothing. If I had a 401k I would stay at my job. Between my pension contribution, social security and my health care costs I pay close to 25% of my salary. Add in my commute costs and there is a point where staying does not make sense.</p>
<p>cobrat - I have many friends, and some of them I am very close with, but I don’t know most of their financial situation and how they spend their money. From time to time, I have wondered how they could afford some of the stuff they have. But guess what, I have never asked, and they have never volunteered any information. I am sorry, but I do find it bizarre that you know so much about your friends’ finances. </p>
<p>I also had a lot of friends in college, and there were many nights when we have stayed up to discuss “what’s wrong with the world” and “what we want to be when we grow up,” but I don’t EVER remember talking about our parents’ finances or even their jobs. D1 just graduated from college, and other than stories about some over the top wealthy families, or dirty poor families, I don’t think she ever really knew about her friend’s family’s financial situation. </p>
<p>I don’t think zoosermom is naive enough to think everything is going to be ok. The fact they have raised 3 kids, managed to have enough nest eggs to require early and live comfortably, I don’t think she needs you to point out the obvious to her.</p>
My loan payback would be directly out of my paycheck, as well and the total amount I could ever borrow can’t exceed $30,000, so I don’t think the possiblity of a loan would ever be a risk to my husband. I can understand it being an asset in the context of a divorce but not to consent to a loan within the context of an ongoing marriage. I must not be alone in my view if some plans don’t require consent, which some posters have stated isn’t a universal requirement.</p>
You should feel free to start a thread on that topic, but your perspective is so completely at odds with the facts in this thread that your posts are not helpful or appropriate. I’m sure we all can discuss people living above their means but, since I’m not one of them and you don’t understand my situation, another thread for your pet peeve would be a far better option.</p>
<p>It really does seem to be the way the plan is written Tom. I will get over it and only God knows what the next three years will bring. Like I said, I may be selling my husband short and he may be totally on board with the clarinet if it’s ultimately a good thing to do.</p>
<p>I hope so zoosermom. Maybe you can enlist the help of your S’s private teacher. When faced with upgrading our child’s instrument, the teacher was adamant that we upgrade. As he improves and faces stiffer competition, a better instrument is necessary. </p>
<p>I know how much pleasure it gives you to hear him play and how much playing means to him. I hope your H puts that in perspective when he thinks about his retirement.</p>
I think that’s what will happen. I’ll hint to the teacher that he should suggest to my H that we rent an upgraded instrumentt for a while. I have reason to believe my husband hates the rental thing and will find it his idea to buy one. At least I hope so.</p>
<p>zooser= ask your husband if your child was a golf prodigy would he skip buying the best clubs?
In the hands of the best the instrument means everything- whether it is a clarinet or golf clubs.</p>
<p>Zooser, what I was asking…how do you know whether your HUSBAND has borrowed against his pension. Since you do not have to give consent for him to do so, maybe he has done so. </p>
<p>The payroll administrators in YOUR job do not administer your husband’s pension…so how would they know what he has or had not done?</p>
<p>All plans have rules . They have them for a reason; sometimes the reason is outdated and moot. The reason they have the spousal notification award is because it does avoid certain problems later. Plans have all kinds of restriction and pecularities because that is the way the adminstrators want them. Some plans will take roll overs, some wont’ Some will let you invest, some won’t. SOme have some choices in investment, some don’t. Within the parameters of the law, the plan can be structured any number of ways. By keeping the loans and withdrawals a family matter, it takes away from the unpleasantness that can occur when a long time employee dies and there is no money in the plan because s/he depleted unbeknownst to the spouse. It is a permitted feature and experienced plan administrators will recommend the provision of forcing both spouse to sign off on any withdrawals.</p>
<p>I thought of two more arguments in favor of buying the professional clarinet. First, good instruments that are well-maintained can be sold for a very good price. So there are two possibilities: either DS loses interest in the clarinet and it can be sold for a large fraction of the purchase price or DS does not lose interest and plays the clarinet for years. If he does continue, the cost of the better clarinet is amortized over many years. Second, clarinets are relatively inexpensive compared to other instruments like violins and pianos. So you are fortunate in the choice of instrument!</p>
Oh I’m sorry Thumper! I know the status of his pension because my husband doesn’t read well and when his quarterly statements come they always contain information that I read for him. He’s also not a borrower. We don’t sneak. I would not have done the 401-k loan without telling him, I simply would have explained that I respect his right to disagree and told him how I planned to pay it back in a way that wouldn’t include his money. I know he would never go behind my back, either.</p>
<p>NYMom, that is a good point. I could start mentioning the value of piano lessons and then he’d be grateful for the clarinet.</p>
<p>There’s an old saying: “Hard cases make bad law.” If all spouses were as upfront and honest with their finances as zoosermom and her husband, there would be no reason for the “consent” requirement.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, they are not. The rules are to protect individuals from unscrupulous spouses, and imposes a burden on people like zoosermom. It is assumed that spouses who are upfront with each other would have no difficulty asking for, and receiving, consent. That may not true in zoosermom’s case.</p>
<p>But there is no way to write a rule or regulation that will cover every person, marriage or situation. (As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, every marriage is different.) zoosermom has found herself in that no-mans-land in which rules designed to protect actually disrupt.</p>
<p>I understand her concerns and even her upset (if not her anger). Every rule or regulation lands someone on the wrong side. This time it’s her.</p>