<p>I appreciate where you are all coming from, but I vehemently, adamantly, emphatically disagree. </p>
<p>I might feel differently if in our particular situation we weren’t both in very good shape for retirement. His will be much earlier than mine, but we are both happy with that. Were we to divorce (which we won’t), we would both walk away with what’s ours and the assets likely wouldn’t be split except for the house. Like I said earlier, I can absolutely understand consent for withdrawal but not for a loan. The way I see it, he could quit his job tomorow if he chose to do so and his pension would be crushed, but neither of us would act irresponsibly.</p>
<p>Zoos, my kids are instrumentalists too…and both own (more than one) professional level instrument. We NEVER would have taken money out of our retirement funds to buy an instrument for them. As suggested, we set aside money each month to make these purchases and then paid for them. </p>
<p>Another thought (and not on topic to this thread)…DD and DS both got fabulous professional level instruments used which they purchased from orchestra members in our area. You might want to look at those. One instrument we bought our daughter was less than 1/2 of the price of a new one ($5000 vs $10,000). Clarinets are less expensive than the instrument we were buying.</p>
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<p>Doesn’t your company have direct deposit? If they do, you can designate a portion to go to a savings account. And you can set up a second savings account for the music instrument purchase.</p>
I can’t emphasize this enough. WE aren’t doing this, I am. Also, we are talking about $5000 or less (borrowed, not distributed) from an huge, huge account. I’m also only 45, so I have 20 years left of work remaining to pay it back. I understand other choices, but this is a well-considered choice for me.</p>
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My company has direct deposit, but the agreement in our marriage is that all funds outside of my retirement account are for the household expenses. He would never change that and I would probably be the loser if he did.</p>
<p>Coming in late to this thread, with unsolicited advice. So feel free to ignore. I was a clarinetist in my younger days. I played solo, in the band, the orchestra, the woodwind ensemble, the clarinet choir and the all county orchestra. When it finally came time to spend the $$ on a better, professional grade instrument, I didn’t pick it out at all. My teacher tried out many instruments, and selected it for me. It was a Buffet. A beautiful instrument that he selected. I had a mouthpiece special made for me. Then one day I went into the band room for rehearsal (I usually left my cheapie instrument at school and kept the good one at home, but this day I had the good one at school), opened the case and it was EMPTY. GONE. Yes we had insurance and replaced the instrument, but it didnt have the same tone. It was never the same. I lost interest and when I got to college I stopped playing. I finally sold my instrument to a HS’er at our local school with an excellend music department.</p>
<p>So, rather than have a dream that is your dream and perhaps not your son’s (and I don’ know what clarinet Benny Goodman played), dont start a family feud. Do as others said- save from your current paycheck and leave your 401K alone. JMO, FWIW.</p>
It is absolutely my son’s dream, which is why it is mine. His teacher absolutely believes this is the best instrument for him when the time comes.</p>
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I appreciate the advice very much, but in our financial arrangements, there is nothing left from the paycheck. Not that we spend it all, plenty is saved or invested, but it all goes somewhere. We each allocate X per month for ourselves. The bulk of mine goes back into my 401-K and for extras for the kids that he doesn’t support. I’m not going to hash out the marriage, but I absolutely believe that I should be able to borrow from my 401-k with no one’s consent and that the amount involved in connection with the size of the account will have no impact on my retirement. Remember, it’s a huge amount and it won’t pay for my husband’s retirement at all. Just me, 20 years down the road.</p>
<p>When my husband and I separated 5 years ago we had to divide up both of our 401(k) and IRAs. They are considered martial assets just like anything else. Doesn’t matter who put what into which account.</p>
<p>ZM - your friend can get an lawyer who will petition the court to force the husband to pay the bills. He can’t just randomly decide he’s not going to pay for anything.</p>
No. Because the money would then be back in the paycheck. Also, I don’t want to stop contributing to the 401-K. With a loan, it’s paid back with interest.</p>
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Now that’s perfect! “But honey, I just knew you wanted that clarinet too!”</p>
<p>When D2 went to prom, I bought a $600 dress by working extra overtime and D1 got something similar. In this economy there just isn’t enough overtime to cover the clarinet. Ultimately I will just have him sign when the time comes. I’m sort of expecting that the music teacher will sit him down and tell him how important the best instrument will be at audition time. In fact, I think I will ensure that that happens. Kid saved him more than 50K on high school, you’d think he would be on board with seeing if anything is possible in terms of college. But no.</p>
<p>If so, isn’t there a way your son can earn a portion of that amount that you can match so 1. It won’t be as much of a financial issue and more importantly 2. He has some “skin” in getting and maintaining such a fine instrument?</p>
<p>Feel free to ignore the following, but IMHO splurging on a $5000 item for a child who is just a year or few away from going off to college is financially sketchy at best*…especially if it is taken from a 401K account which the law considers some sort of joint-marital property and where there’s heavy penalties for not repaying on-time or for other reasons. </p>
<p>If I were your son…I’d try my best to get you to keep that money in your retirement account and to not risk the heavy outlay plus potential financial penalties from the government. </p>
<p>And yes, I’ve been in situations both before and after college when I’ve refused expensive gifts of that amount or more from older relatives or after college…my parents because I felt it was an undue strain on their financial resources…even if they were actually able to handle it. </p>
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<li>I knew of a few upper-middle class families whose kids had to turn down admission to some topflight fine schools to attend a mediocre non-flagship local SUNY campus because their parents splurged so much on buying high-ticket gift items during K-12 that they weren’t able to afford paying college expenses when the time came. More importantly, those kids are now saddled with substantial loans and the parents are now going to have to work well-past 67 just to have something to retire on.</li>
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<p>My son is 13. He is not legally allowed to work. Second, my husband and I each have a very large amount of money for retirement, we have savings and investments, we also have a very large income. What we don’t have is agreement on this expenditure, which is why I am working around him. Not because we can’t afford it. We certainly can. But because my husband opposes it and I have to do it on my own in a way that won’t impact him.</p>
If you are aiming at the goal of having the $ for the instrument, you might need to be flexible and compromise. You might have to forego the interest in the 401K for a few years and instead open an interest bearing savings account. I use INGDirect on line, I can transfer directly from my checking account to it, and it pays a small interest no matter how much is in the account. And if you let me refer you to INGDirect and you open an account with $250, I get $10 referral fee and you get $25 bonus for opening the account! So yes, you will have to pay tax on your income before you put it in savings, but if your goal is to save for the Selmer, its a small price to pay. PM me if you want to be referred to open an INGDirect. You can open on your own, but won’t get the $25. And when you’ve saved enough, you hang onto it (the ING savings account) and start back putting into the 401K.</p>
<p>To be honest, I don’t share the OP’s frustration with the system as it stands, because I think the good completely overwhelms the negative. I do understand why her particular situation frustrates her.</p>
<p>However…I have to say that I applaud the OP’s restraint. She hasn’t asked for judgments on the wisdom of spending x amount on y object. That’s really none of our business, and I imagine none of us would welcome someone projecting their particular values on what we do with our money. She has specifically stated she doesn’t need advice on how to proceed. It seems she merely wanted to vent on a situation she finds unfair.</p>
<p>I played flute on a very serious level at one point in my life. I wanted very much to have a high quality instrument, and my instructor agreed that with my talent and interest in making music a career choice, having the best instrument possible would make a huge difference in my future. My parents flat did not have the money. They bought me the best one they could afford, and stretched to do even that, and for that I was grateful. But the OP is correct that the quality of instrument truly does affect the sound of the instrument, and thus the impact of the musician’s efforts.</p>
He would have a breakdown if I opened a separate account. It would be a bomb in the marriage, it really would.</p>
<p>Hubby is not a bad guy, but as I was explaining to a friend, he grew up with nothing and is frugal to the point of ridiculous about things he doesn’t “get.” This is one of those things. Kid has very nice golf clubs and they spend decent money on golf outings. He “gets” that. He doesn’t get why a professional clarinet would be a good thing for a kid who might be a professional sooner than he thinks (his music school sends out their top kids to play weddings, charity events and stuff). He didn’t get an expensive prom dress for a girl who was a size 00 and chose not to have a sweet 16 party. He understands from fencing and was fine with her swords, masks and other things. I understand it’s a problem in the marriage, but it’s something I have to do myself because he just isn’t going to contribute. He shouldn’t have to give consent for something he doesn’t support, but I shouldn’t be barred from purchasing something that I find totally reasonable and is well within our means. I’m trying to work around him in a way that I know will allow him to live with it.</p>
<p>But it’s OK to want to borrow against the retirement account when your husband isn’t on board? I don’t think I understand why you can’t change the household expenses money but you think you can do something with that retirement account.</p>
<p>The reason FOR spousal consent is so that spouses will have to come to some agreement on these types of accounts.</p>
<p>The ING account can be in BOTH your names. It doesnt have to be just in yours. My DH and I have one, I am (well was) on joint accounts with both s’s and my dad. Made moving money around VERY easy. Think about it.</p>
<p>That’s strange as I was working various jobs ranging from dishwasher at a pizzeria to running the cashier at a local stationary store part-time and on weekends during my junior high years and it was common for other kids of 10-17 to be working. </p>
<p>Granted, we did have to get special child working permits from the city/state and our working hours were restricted…but unless they did away with those working permits within the last few years…I find the above hard to believe as I still see junior high and early high school aged kids working part-time/after school jobs in the NYC area.</p>
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<p>I can relate very much to your H’s mindset even though my immediate family did their best to shelter me from the worst effects of living in financially constrained circumstances growing up. It’s especially hard to miss if one grew up with older relatives recounting experiences growing up as refugees from a country that was one of the poorest and wracked by colonialism, invasions, and wars. </p>
<p>It’s the horror of returning to poverty as he remembered which is not only bad enough for H himself…but also compounded if it also involves you as the loved spouse and the kids.</p>
And tell me, cobrat, do the protagonists of your stories play in music ensembles several days a week, as well as volunteer? I would also really like to know where those kids are getting jobs, because in the NYC I live in, there are no jobs for anyone. High school, college students are pounding the pavement in vain because nobody is hiring. There are even adults doing jobs like making deliveries and washing dishes, which pushes the kids out of the jobs. But nobody would hire middle school kids except maybe people they knew personally.</p>
<p>From my read on this thread, I think zoosermom is more annoyed that she feels like she doesn’t have complete control over this 401K. It’s possible that with the husband’s pension, that he doesn’t have to ask for the same “consent” to withdraw funds. </p>
<p>It’s a control issue. It might be about money, or raising the kids, or where to vacation, or any one of a number of things but the bottom line is that when we feel that our decisions are not respected in a partnership, it’s hard to take. It’s even harder when we believe that we SHOULD be respected.</p>
<p>Add in the fact that a legal rule has now made it that much harder to resolve this between these spouses, and it feels pretty awful, I would think. </p>
<p>I remember when I was talking to my life insurance agent “if” husband and I both died - what happens to the funds. He told me that my guardian would have to petition to the court for a yearly sum to pay for their care. I said that is what life insurance is for so that the guardians could provide the care. He disagreed, and said that if the guardians couldn’t afford the care without the funds, they shouldn’t be guardians. I was livid. I also changed where my life insurance company after that point. I found the process ridiculous. If my will had stated that the monies would be in a trust, that would be one thing. But for the life insurance company to be able to make interest on what would a sizable chunk of money, instead of my heirs really angered me to a boiling point! </p>
<p>One thing that I would recommend to zoosermom is to reduce investment in the 401K by $100 or 200 a month maybe (even if you lose a little on company match, if that’s the case, or pre-tax income) and start a Roth IRA. You can use it without penalties for your investment (not the interest earnings) to help pay for various things, don’t have to take a loan and it’s there building up a nest egg for the little things in life that may be important to you.</p>