Is it worth contacting D3 track coaches for a HS junior with an 800m PR of 2:00 flat?
My son is interested in strong academic D3 schools where he can run–perhaps Williams, Amherst, Haverford, Carleton, and schools of that size and academic profile. In other words, his targets would be NESCACs and similar schools. His academic numbers are 35 ACT (single sitting), GPA 4.5w and 3.8uw. Rank is somewhere in top 10 of 300 at large urban public school. He’ll have ~15 AP classes by graduation. He’s awaiting June SAT subject test scores but he feels confident he got 750 or higher on two tests.
Just to be clear–we understand 2 flat does NOT meet recruiting standard, at least not at schools with strong programs. My gut sense is 1:58 in the 800 is probably the threshold for recruiting attention at these D3 schools. Workouts indicated my son might hit that on a good day, but he ended the 11th grade with PR of 2:00.xx—a few frustrating fractions of a second over two minutes. Clearly, he has not posted the times to be a top recruit and he’ll have to run the holistic admissions gamut like everybody else. We have no illusions about that. My question is: Does he also fall short of the threshold for a lesser degree of soft support such as coaches saying a friendly word to admissions on his behalf? Any chance a kid with such times might be coded what some schools call “athletic factor”? Or is a 2-flat runner effectively the same as a 2:30 runner—just another kid with an EC?
A bit of context: My son was a soccer player until this year and switched to year-round running (XC and outdoor track) his junior year. His improvement has been pretty steep. We live in a northern state with a very short track season (April-late May) and he saw a drop in 800m times with PR in almost every race. He’s done zero supplemental work (plyos, weights, drills) and only light mileage so he remains under-trained with a large potential for improvement, I think. Only recently has he begun to believe he could be pretty good if he sets his mind to running. Now he’s looking forward to his first real summer of training (he was still playing soccer last summer and not only began running last September) so hopefully that will help him drop his times next year into mid to high 1:5X…but of course that will be senior year and too late for recruiting.
Track geeks may ask about his 400 speed—53 in 10th grade. Not sure what he could do now because he never ran an open 400 this year.
Should this kid contact the coaches at his target schools? Any chance coaches might see him as somebody with potential to help the team and worthy of mild admissions support? Or are they likely to respond, "good luck getting in on your own and maybe you can join us as a walk-on”? Will track help his application at all beyond being another EC?
Yes, for the schools you mention, it’s worth sending interest emails to the coaches-and in those emails, detail his progress the way you have here, with an emphasis on the clear upside your son has. I’d recommend mentioning both T&F and XC as interests.
And good 400/800s are tough to find-so keep working on that. With his academics and the obvious upward trend in athletics, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised-good luck!
Definitely worth filling out recruiting forms and sending an email to coaches at any schools of interest. While a 2 flat in general isn’t going to get much attention, the specifics—short training history, aerobically underdeveloped, decent 400 speed—might be intriguing to some coaches. So I’d make sure to include that in the email.
Others will have more nescac-specific knowledge but I suspect the threshold for strong interest at those schools is probably more in the 1:56 range. The threshold for Ivies is around 1:54, and the kids who get shut out of Ivies will often turn to these D3 options (as well as other strong athletes who want D3 in the first place). In terms of soft support, it’s going to vary by school, program, and year.
I think you’ll have a pretty good sense of things after sending those emails and, if he gets replies, chatting with the coaches. I would cast a wide net given the circumstance. You’ve listed some strong track programs that are getting inquiries from a lot of strong runners. Mixing in some weaker programs might help. Check out performance lists on tfrrs.org for results from current team members. You might also consider visiting a few campuses this summer and setting up a meeting with the coach. This can help an athlete stand out from the crowd, but also give you a better sense of whether a coach is interested in using her or his limited resources to help with admissions, if they’re hoping for a walk-on, or if they aren’t interested at all (the latter is unlikely given what you’ve described).
Having said all that, your son sounds like he has a bright future in the sport whether or not he is recruited. Runners like that can thrive at D3 schools.
Good advice so far and I agree that the whole concept of soft support will vary by school and program, some coaches will put in a plug with admissions, but some coaches don’t even deal with the concept of soft support—rather they say something like ‘if you get accepted on your own, you can run on the team’.
The big decision you will be faced with is if a coach does offer soft support, is that going to be enough reason to use your one ED bullet…soft support admit rates are likely significantly lower than that of slotted athletes, but probably greater than that of a completely unhooked ED applicant…but we don’t know that for sure. It’s fair to ask the offering coach what proportion of their soft support athletes are accepted in each admission round–athletes come through all rounds of admission, but most apply early and applying ED is often required for slotted or soft support student-athletes.
Wow ok. Your son is very similar to our S19. Left soccer for XC and track. Decreases in his running times (both XC and 1600) just shy of recruitable at the end of junior year but he knew he was getting faster. 1540 one sitting on the SAT August of junior year. Lots of rigor. Also an art student and lots of leadership in the community. Wanted a LAC.
He reached out to coaches during the summer before senior year. Gave them his most recent times but also explained he was pretty new to the sport and had grown five inches during junior year and was still growing. His summer training was going very well. He had very positive responses from head coaches at Kenyon, Hamilton, Bowdoin, Williams and more. He never heard back from the coach at Carleton but he did get in and that coach called him after his admittance. Only Kenyon’s coach visited him while he was in our neighborhood fall of senior year but S kept all of the coaches up to date on his XC times throughout the fall. They each were quick to respond to all of his emails and told him to keep them up to date. They never offered to “give him a spot” ED but all said he would be welcome on the team if he got in. S wasn’t ready to choose an ED school so we rolled the dice with RD to all schools.
He got into ten out of 14 schools and has decided to go to Bowdoin. The coach called him to congratulate him after he sent in his deposit. They’ve had a couple of calls since then. Ends up the coach thinks he might end up being the seventh guy on the XC team and he will be competing quite a bit. We don’t know if the coaches at any of the schools had a hand in his acceptances. We think he had the stats and other ECs that made him a strong candidate.
FWIW I looked at the results of California state championships last month, and in the varsity division for the 800, in the preliminaries every single runner broke 2:00 (37 of them). The winner in the finals was 1:50.
@ProfessorPlum168 right. But many of those kids will try to run D1 if they want to continue to run. I think CA is a very fast state. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. Plus, elite LACs are not for everyone and they do expect top academics. I’m sure not all of those kids have that.
Yeah I guess I’m used to watching the NCAA nationals and Power 5 conference meets where everyone is going 1:45-1:49. As far as HS, I would expect runners in high altitude states to go faster than California, but maybe not, don’t know.
Our S19 never even ran in sectionals. Our high school has a pretty strong team and he was never top two in an event. His final 1600 senior year was 4:42. Not stunning. But he went from 5:00 to 4:42 in one year. And he’s bright. He was still appealing to coaches at top LACs.
Our S19 was also in a similar situation. He has been running track (sprints) throughout his high school career, but it is a very informal program, with no track to practice on and no serious coaching. His times are not at the very top, but he loves running and it seems he still has room to grow. We wanted to make sure he can run in a more serious environment in college, and it was actually this issue that first brought me to CC. I learned a lot here about the recruiting process at D3 schools. (I recall there are some very helpful threads about how the NESCAC process works, although I am not sure they were track-specific.) We contacted the coach at every school he applied to and arranged to meet with the coaches whenever we did college visits. Most coaches will ask you as a starting point to complete the recruiting questionnaire that can be found on the team’s homepage, so I would suggest you actually do that first. Although our son was not seriously recruited by any of the schools he applied to and ended up visiting the school he will attend only after he was accepted, the attention we paid to track throughout the recruiting process made a big difference for him. Almost all of the coaches he contacted were happy to spend time with him, show him the facilities, introduce him to team members, invite him to practice, etc. It was the most personal part of the process for him and helped him distinguish among schools that were similar in many other ways. Track is also a great sport because many teams welcome all serious runners, although there may be some meets where only the faster kids are asked to participate. It’s not like soccer, where you need only so many strikers. In our case, S19 has been warmly welcomed onto the team, provided with a summer training regimen, etc. and this is really helping pave the way for September. So I guess my message would be, if you can get admissions support from the coach, that’s great, but, assuming that running in college is a priority for your son, it’s worth spending time on this even if the recruiting angle doesn’t pan out.
@ProfessorPlum168 The CA state champ ran just under 1:52 this year and is going to Cal, where they’ll expect him to score at the PAC 12 meet within a few years. He didn’t break 1:54 as a junior. 1-2 second annual improvement is pretty common with young guys in the 800, so a lot of those runners you’re thinking of were probably in the 1:50-1:52 range in HS (roughly top 30 in the nation). Or else they’re converted 400 meter runners, which is pretty common.
You’re right that it’s a big gap from there to 2 flat. But, in addition to what @homerdog mentions about differences between D1 and lac, what’s intriguing about the OP’s son is that he’s undertrained and has decent speed. (A lot of 2 flat CA kids have been running 60 mile weeks for years and can’t break 55 in the 400). Here’s what a D3 coach might see: a kid who ran 53 as a soph might get to 51 as a senior; with that kind of speed and a year of solid aerobic training, that 2 flat could become a 1:56-7 or better as a senior, 1:55 the first year of college. That’s an athlete that can score in the 8 and run the 4x4 in many D3 conferences. None of that is guaranteed, of course, and few coaches will choose that potential over an actual 51/1:56 junior. But I do think the short training history and the decent speed puts the 2 flat in a different perspective.
@politeperson: you have pretty much transcribed my thoughts about potential and progression. 1:56 is indeed his goal for senior year and I think entirely reasonable. I don’t think he’s ever run above 40 miles per week and never trained for more than a couple of months during the year. This summer and coming year his training and ambition will ramp up so we’ll see what happens. He does compete well and is very tough in the last 100m when everybody feels like they’re running through cement. He closed one race in a 57 last 400m.
Again, I have no illusions that his current times will be impressive to a coach looking at national or even our state rankings. In terms of admissions, we are not pinning hopes on this kid as “track recruit.” Instead, we’re thinking “well-rounded candidate with potential to contribute to track team.” (fwiw, he also plays an instrument pretty well and has an academic interest in math, esp. the theoretical side, and takes advanced classes at our state flagship university). Mostly I am wondering 1. if any coach will take interest so that track rises above “garden variety EC” in admissions and 2. what programs in his target list may provide a welcoming team and help this kid develop into a low 1:50 runner by the end of college. I also could see him becoming a miler although at the moment he is stronger at the speed end of the spectrum and his relative performance is weaker in longer events. Luckily, the endurance part is more amenable to work.
Thanks everybody for feedback. Every person who responded has provided something useful.
@oldschooldad has he visited any schools? Does he have a list? Are you looking to add to it or are you curious about schools you could add? I think the schools you mentioned earlier would all be interested in him as a student and and athlete. Like other posters above, I suggest he fill out the online interest forms and then also email the coaches. Tell them a little about himself as a student and as a runner. See if they respond.
@homerdog Yes, he has visited some of the schools I mentioned. We’ve done some routine visits but he hasn’t talked to any coaches. He also got dragged along on college visits with his older brother a couple if years ago. We may do a short northeast trip in late summer or fall. We’re definitely open to adding other schools–off the top of my head perhaps Bowdoin, Middlebury, Grinnell, and schools of similar profile.
@oldschooldad Looking at the outdoor conference championship meet for the Midwest Conference (Grinnell’s Conference), a 2:00.00 time in the 800 would have placed 9th. A 1:58.00 would have placed 6th. Your son’s times are already competitive for the Midwest Conference. The winner (from Grinnell), ran 1:55.97.
Like the others, I think you should contact the coaches. Recruiting is one area in which no one really knows the needs but the coach. You always can look on line and project out based on the roster (graduating seniors, etc.), but there is attrition and injury that is not reflected on the roster. Let the coach say what his or her needs are.
You also should take a look at the results from meets that are available on-line. That will give you some idea about where things fit in with a given time. I will say that at one invitational that included most NESCAC schools, that time would run about 15th out of 60 for preliminaries.
My quibble is about “soft” support. I understand that track coaches may not be able to provide the same nature of support as other sports like LAX or soccer, simply because track and field may need more warm bodies. I still am worried about relying on the “soft” support of a coach as being any kind of support that should be relied on. My sense is (likely to push-back, I know) that soft support is only a step up from having high school varsity athletic ECs on your college application. It is different from being recruit no. 5 on a list of 5 (more like recruit no. 6 on a list of 5). I would not place any sort of reliance on soft support (i.e., don’t waste an ED chip on it) unless the coach agrees to a pre-read with admissions and you get positive feedback from the pre-read.
Yes, yes, 1000x yes. Without a pre-read one should not have a high expectation of acceptance with ‘soft support’ in an ED round. Just make sure to ask questions of the coaches, ask for a pre-read, ask for a financial pre-read, etc. it is really important to understand the terminology they are using, and the historical acceptance rate of student-athletes accepted under those terms.
The only school that even offered S19 a pre read was Kenyon. Came back super positive (coach said way above the A band). We are full pay so we didn’t get a financial read and it wasn’t his place to discuss merit aid although S19 did end up getting $20k per year in merit upon acceptance. I’m 100% sure that merit had to do with his academics and not his running.
As for the thread above and Bowdoin, the Bowdoin coach was very clear in his initial email to us that he has no pull in admissions and that S19 had to get in on his own. Now, that was just the case for our son and not all runners. A current rising senior at our high school HAS been contacted by this same Bowdoin coach and is being officially recruited. I believe his 800 time is 2:02 but his 1600 time is 4:24. I think his three mile XC time is about 15:20. But the coach was honest with us and never mentioned getting a pre read for our son. We hoped his continued positive emails throughout senior year were a positive sign but we didn’t count on anything.
Thanks for all the great feedback. Message heard loud and clear re not relying on soft support and not investing much confidence in anything short of an official pre-read.
This is the OP again. Just as a thought exercise, let me pose a hypothetical question. We’ve toyed with the idea of my son taking a gap year or post graduate (PG) year at a private school and I am wondering how track might factor into the equation.
Say the same kid runs around 1:57 in the 800 and 51-52 in the 400 as a senior at current public HS and then applies to the same D3 schools listed above the following fall as a PG senior at a different high school or gap year student (who is still training independently). Would a coach view these spring 2020 times by a senior in the same light as they would for same times run by a junior applying in same admissions cycle? Or would those times be perceived as less impressive because the kid is a second-year senior?
Just to be clear, the reason for considering an extra year is NOT athletics nor chasing a pipe dream of being recruited. Rather, the incentive is an extra year of maturity and academic rigor for a kid who is young for his grade and attends a low-income urban school. The late-arriving focus I described earlier also applies to academics and other areas of his life so another year of HS might serve him well in the long run. The athletic piece is just a collateral issue–yet might work to his advantage.
I’m also wondering about prep school PG admissions. If this student applies to one of the top NEPSTA schools for PG year, would 2 flat 800, ~16:30-16:45 5k XC be assets in application? Might those times be seen favorably in PG admissions for NEPSTA boarding schools?