True, but many students (relatively more underprivileged students) skip the HSs’ day of testing, and wait until spring of senior year to take it. And many states do offer exceptions to the requirement.
3 Likes
Are these the states that require them for state colleges - FL, GA, (TN?) ? Also, is test prep part of the curriculum?
In short - they are letting in too many kids that don’t have the tools to succeed. Research has shown that the test is an indicator of college success - self serving studies (College Board) and non College Board studies have shown this historically.
They say it right here - not hard to read between the lines:
Importantly, these test scores better position Admissions to identify high-achieving less-advantaged applicants
1 Like
Those students that skip the offered testing will deal with the potential consequences. One can make the process easier, but one can’t force students to do what is necessary to get admitted to college or even to graduate high school, if the student isn’t interested.
7 Likes
Posters on college confidential routinely tell students with below 1500 not to submit their scores to the most selective colleges! So perhaps the first piece of advice should be don’t listen to random strangers on the internet!
My take on the whole thing is that if Dartmouth finds scores more helpful than not, then their admissions office should require the scores. If other colleges don’t find scores as helpful then they can remain TO. I am skeptical that any change in policy will appease the unhappy parents who believe that their 1550+ child should have been admitted or quiet their resentment when they point to the students with 1350-1500 scores who they believe are bringing down the quality of certain colleges, but I would be delighted to be proven wrong. I just know that similar frustrations existed prior to so many colleges going test optional, and I am unclear that returning to test required will make the most frustrated people any happier.
On the issue of grade inflation, I do get the skepticism about the high schools where a third or more of the class have GPAs over 4.0. My kids’ schools have not been like that, but you can see some GPA creep over the years if you look at how the profiles (hooray internet wayback machine) have changed over the years. It does make me wonder whether students have become that much stronger (quite possible given how advanced and sophisticated some curricula have become at their schools) or if their schools just treat grades differently than in the past (more about mastery of the material and less about comparing students with each other).
I’ve certainly heard my daughters complain about an everyone gets an A culture in some of their classes. After all, they wonder, why should they work as hard as they do and stretch themselves when there are students in the class who do much less and still get similar grades? I get it, but I also believe the answer is in their question and I don’t really tolerate their complaints. I say to them that they should mind their own business and stay out of other people’s affairs. Their job as students is to work hard, stretch themselves, be good classroom citizens, be intellectually curious, compassionate and kind. Their job is to learn the material (content) and master the skills that will serve them later in life. Their job is to value the learning for its own sake and not worry about what grades other people get or which colleges accept their peers. Sticking their nose into the teachers’ grading policies or the performance of their classmates is not in the job description.
11 Likes
Because college for many of us is for education and not technical training. We want our children to be to be able to critically think and communicate.
10 Likes
Those skills can be acquired in any major. Some students interested in STEM transfer out of those majors at an overly rigorous ( for them) school. It is reasonable to ask if they would have been better off at a less rigorous school that allowed them to stay in their first choice of study.
3 Likes
I don’t think it is a bad thing at all - I just like to point out the reality that it is a pretty small pool they are talking about. Not only that, they didn’t have much success attracting these students prior to TO so I’m not sure how they magically expect to attract them now, when even fewer are taking the tests.
3 Likes
Facts!
Agree 100%
Not sure the former is a thing (but not sure, I don’t work at D) but the latter for sure…we see that elitism and sometimes other -isms here on CC, along with the all too common ‘that kid with the 1350 took my kid’s spot’ or ‘my kid needs to be around similarly strong peers’.
2 Likes
It is interesting - and maybe others can find it - but on the CDS or Dartmouth student profile, they do not list the % who applied or enrolled that submitted.
The CDS (for 22/23) is missing a lot. The 23/24 is up - but not yet filled in.
So it’s hard to know where they’re coming from past wise - unless I’m simply missing the numbers.
I really enjoy reading your view/insights on various topics. I told my kids the same thing in the face of rampant grade grubbing and cheating by some of their classmates. You do your thing and things will sort out as they should over time. On the other hand, I do think grade inflation is an issue when it comes to college admissions. An AO on a 5 -10 min initial read is unlikely to distinguish between 4.0’s (or 3.75’s). Even applying a judgment based on “rigor”, some of the worst grade inflation is probably in AP/Honors type classes.
Personally, I am less sanguine that students now are better prepared than in the past. No studies to support this, just personal observations of my kids’ classmates.
4 Likes
I think part of what Dartmouth is really trying to make clear is how contextual that is.
Based on the SCOIR data available to me for our feederish private HS, I can see the majority of our admits to Dartmouth in recent years have had a 1500+/34+. The exceptions are rare enough they could all be hooked in some way.
So I think the honest answer for unhooked kids from our HS was if you didn’t have a 1500+/34+ score to report to Dartmouth, you probably had very little chance of acceptance. Submit, don’t submit, I think you probably were not going to be seen as competitive either way.
And I suspect Dartmouth’s new policy won’t really change anything for unhooked kids from our HS, it is more just going to be making their policy a little more transparent.
The tricky thing is that would not always be the right answer, indeed it could be a very wrong answer for sufficiently different kids from sufficiently different high schools. The policy change alone doesn’t tell us that, but what Dartmouth is saying about why it is changing the policy does, and that information is hopefully going to become more widely known.
7 Likes
Louisiana requires the ACT for HS graduation and offers testing during the school day but ACT prep is NOT really part of the curriculum. Our suburban public HS has an ACT prep course on the list of classes offered but I don’t know anybody who took it. I believe it is mainly for those that have problems getting a 21 which would qualify them for TOPS, the state free tuition scholarship.
1 Like
But how to get that information out to the right kids/schools? Honestly, I don’t think this test policy will change anything at our HS in terms of who gets accepted; although it will probably reduce the number of applications a little bit (the high gpa/TO applicants). Lower SAT/TO applicants weren’t getting in anyway, but now some kids won’t bother applying and that could be a plus for both the kid and the school.
1 Like
It is on almost every school profile I have seen. They often (usually?) do know exactly what it is!
My kids school average is mid 1200s, town near me is 1350+.
Our public high school reports this on its school profile, which is updated and provided yearly to colleges and parents and the general public (if they chose to go look for it). It states the specific percentage of students taking each test and the median score (for SAT/ACT/AP).
1 Like
Does it say what % of students take the tests? How do you find it for a town near you, i.e is it public info?
Usually, yes.
Try googling “[high school name] school report” or “school profile” or “class of 2023 profile.” If the school has a link to their counseling department it is sometimes posted there.
4 Likes
Couple of random publics from metro Boston (one rich area, one less so - by design so you can see the shockinlgy different averages)
Colleges use this HEAVILY to put kids in context (Note they both have newers ones, but couldn’t be bother searching - you can get the idea of it)
3 Likes