Then you would be very suspicious of a great many bright and capable people. This bit on the SAT and standardized testing always explores the extreme corners of the argument, which is why I seldom jump into the discussions. I think the tests are useful in context, but you fail to recognize even the most obvious externalities that can explain an lackluster score for an otherwise bright and capable student.
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I note again the Admissions Podcasts got into this issue a little. They acknowledged they had seen an increase in applications from various disadvantaged groups, which they see as a positive, but they also claimed it appeared to be mostly continuing a pre-COVID trend. Where they really saw an explosion in applications was from internationals, and from applicants who really were not overall competitive applicants for Yale.
So we shall see, but that is part of their explanation for why they think this could on net help disadvantaged potential applicants. They seem to think it really should not lead to a lot fewer disadvantage applicants, but will lead to more disadvantaged applicants submitting helpful test scores.
Why wouldn’t the results apply more broadly?
For schools a little further down the totem pole, TO allowed them to talk about how high their SAT scores were for admitted students (while ignoring the fact that only a small % actually submitted). They probably dont want to show that unwind…
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I wonder if there is research on how correlated SAT/ACT scores are to AP scores. Anecdotally, the kids I know that get 4/5’s on AP tests do pretty well on SAT/ACT’s. Outside of California applicants perhaps, I wonder how many applicants take AP exams but don’t take the ACT or SAT. From the pod broadcast, it does seem not including AP scores when the classes were taken raises potential questions - reminds me of when SAT2 scores were recommended but not required.
Sounds like they want you to include all AP scores in the podcast.
The vast majority of schools are close to ‘open admit’ as long as the student can meet relatively easy and well understood thresholds so I really don’t think that these discussions and decisions affect them in any meaningful way. We really are talking about only 100 or so schools in the country where these types of discussions matter. But, on CC we love to talk about those schools.
If we get a few more of the T20 going this way I am sure that we will have a discussion about CA being an outlier where few take the SAT.
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It does but many years ago I spent time in a world where “should” and “shall” had very specific meanings.
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The released research rationale from Dartmouth aligns with what you’re pointing out. But what do you make of Friedman’s comment in IHE:
“I think since the pandemic we’ve learned a lot more about how the test-optional policies are operating in practice, with data to support, instead of just anecdotally,” said John Friedman, co-founder of Opportunity Insights and the lead researcher on the study, which links test scores to academic success at selective institutions. “And what we’re learning is, without the test scores, there’s a tremendous amount of uncertainty about whether that student is really at the level that [highly selective colleges] require.”
It seems to hint that they compared the inclusion vs exclusion of testing from amongst the basket of criteria they use, not just the single factor comparison discussed. Or am I overgleaning?
So one thing those particular schools have said is they are finding a problem with persistence in STEM majors among people without high math scores. That is a specific enough issue that it strikes me as possible some other highly selective colleges would not have the same problem, or perhaps would simply not care.
I also am not sure their concern about demographic pros and cons would arise in the same way, or with the same net balance, at all other highly selective colleges.
So, this could be a thing where it just happens Yale and Dartmouth are among the colleges where this makes more sense, and other colleges will not be. Or maybe it is just the first examples in a coming wave. We shall see.
I note those are not all the same populations of test takers.
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Actually, Friedman was pretty clear on this topic:
(again from the IHE article)
Friedman said his research is not meant to be extrapolated to a broad swath of colleges and universities—only to the highly selective ones. In those cases, he said, test scores do add a significant measure of aptitude.
“The data is certainly not dispositive for more open-access institutions. In many cases, at those colleges grades are a better predictor of success than test scores,” he said. “But at a certain level of extreme selectivity, getting a 4.0 doesn’t mean much.”
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I was trying to ask this on the other thread to see what people think. What I wrote there:
Does “should” mean “must,” as in, all AP scores are required, or does “should” mean something more like recommended? It seems to me that the answer would be the latter, though the choice of language is disappointingly vague and ambiguous. Or, would “should” mean “must” when contrasted with the use of “may” in the following sentence about superscoring.
I can already imagine there is some junior hoping to apply to Yale with AP scores rather than SAT/ACT, but not wanting to submit some 2 they got freshman year or something. And they’re going to come here asking if they submit the 2 because Yale says they “should” although no one here at CC would advise submitting a 2 unless all AP scores are explicitly required in order to apply via AP scores under the policy. What do we tell them? It still seems sufficiently vague and ambiguous that they could reasonably withhold the 2, even though it would later show up on an official score report upon matriculation. Does anyone disagree? Sorry, I’m just irked by the lack of foresight in the chosen language, unless I missed a clarification somewhere in the website.
The stock line is that everything in college admissions favors the wealthy, but the SAT favors the wealthy the least.
Children who grew up in a 1% household are something like 40 times more likely to score a 1500 or higher than children from the bottom 50%.
Is there really a larger disparity than that for transcripts, essays, extracurriculars, recommendations, and so on? Seems pretty unlikely.
I hope that Yale would explicitly limit the number of AP test scores that they would accept, so that students would not ‘feel compelled’ to submit AP test scores on all available subjects (38 ??)
I was addressing the oft used argument that standardized test scores advantaged the more affluent because of research that showed test scores correlated with income and that higher income families could afford test prep and had overall a more favorable learning environment at school and home. I don’t know if the bulk of additional TO students to places like Yale came from lower income groups. Just my opinion, but I suspect the TO applicants post covid were probably spread similar to the general applicant pool.
This is exactly what I was highlighting, AP 5s do not remotely approach the typical SAT scores at these schools.
Again it remains to be seen, but both the official policy and what they said about it seemed pretty clear to me. I guess the question is what they will do to enforce it.
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Right – and if some kids are struggling relative to their peers, giving them As and Bs anyway isn’t going to reflect that.
Of course there is. Reference and counselor letters at wealthy private schools are polished to perfection; extracurriculars are curated and essays revised repeatedly. Some much more parental/counselor input there than inthe test scores, which other than hiring a tutor ( not that effective often) aren’t manipulated as much.
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With the caveat that I have not read over the website statements super carefully, I think it would be crappy of Yale to enforce an all-AP-scores policy (for those not submitting SAT/ACT) that they couldn’t bother to write clearly.
I had posted about the quality of 4.0 GPA with low test scores. Many here didn’t agree with me but rather questioned the quality of the tests. I also don’t understand about the resouces being needed for preparing the tests. I have two kids who scored over 1500 on SAT and all they ever got was the Barron’s SAT book whic cost $25
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I think SAT and APs are very difficult to compare by percentile due to the different populations taking the tests as well as the limited, blunt nature of AP scores.
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