Stanford, Harvard, Dartmouth, Yale, Penn, Brown, CalTech, JHU, and UT-Austin to Require Standardized Testing for Admissions

Applying to College
979

Many people believe exactly this, and it’s been addressed on various CC threads over the years.

There are those who are anti-test, there are those who are pro-test. IME the biggest group is in between those two ‘sides’.

For example, when I was working with FGLI/URM students I always encouraged them to test. Some did, some didn’t. For the ones who did, if they scored a 900 or 1,000 (for example), they generally would be done with testing, because those students were quite far from a score that would ‘help’ them in college admissions…so why spend prep time when that time could be better spent on school, homework, ECs, life, etc.

Testing is an area where higher ed people can look at basically the same data and come to different conclusions (for example, Dartmouth and Michigan used similar rationale for their divergent new testing policies “that the move would help increase accessibility and diversity in the admissions process.” Quote from this IHE article…

(4 articles per month with free registration): https://www.insidehighered.com/news/admissions/traditional-age/2024/02/26/no-emerging-consensus-standardized-test-policies

To better understand some in the anti-testing group, one does have to look at the history of testing in our country…it’s not pretty as many posters on this thread have stated. This testimony from Ibram X. Kendi (sent to the Boston School Committee during the height of the pandemic) illustrates some of the history of testing and its impact on current perceptions/practices: Read Ibram X. Kendi's Testimony in Support of the Working Group Recommendation to #SuspendTheTest — Boston Coalition for Education Equity

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980

Where to begin… okay:

You literally say it’s an achievement test, so high achieving kids do well on the test. You argue passionately that SAT doesn’t measure intelligence in the prior paragraph. So, in your world, why wouldn’t merit = achievement? Kids who work hard and achieve academic knowledge and is able to display that knowledge through a standardized test is more deserving than those who cannot. The fact that the SAT doesn’t even cover material into calculus be damned, but I digress…

Social engineers… so, you think the right kind of discrimination is okay, but not the wrong kind? I’m confused by the argument of more discrimination is good because there was some bad discrimination in the past. How about, ‘all discrimination is bad’? What’s wrong with that?

Harvard… I’m referring to the incredible deterioration in the value of that degree in the past 6 months. would you disagree? The Harvard Crimson is reporting that the board didn’t even properly vet the academic credentials of the former President. You have major donors pulling support because they see the value of the degree dropping. You have major law firms saying they won’t hire from Harvard. My point is that graduates want to their degrees to hold value over time and that value can change rapidly. Exclusivity is key to maintaining that value. Why wouldn’t students and graduates want that perceived exclusivity to continue?

I dont subscribe to the NY Times but generally take their reporting with a grain of salt…

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981

are you sure? (Then what were the Achievement tests for?)

Shortly after morphing from the Army IQ test, wasn’t the “A” for Aptitude, and then Assessment. Now its just a letter.

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982

This made me chuckle. Maybe it’s time for CB to start paying the HSs for their space, and the counselors for their time? They could also increase weekend test proctor pay rates (many schools say they have a difficult time getting proctors). Seems like CB is generating enough net profits to pay for those things.

Assuming they don’t make those changes, they will just continue to say ‘we can’t make HSs open up weekend testing sites’ or ‘we can’t make counselors value testing’, etc.

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983

Thank you for reinforcing my point. (Different conclusions <> credulity-straining, IMO.)

984

This does indeed fall under the “who watches the watchmen?” Or “Animal Farm” categories.

There’s a lot to be said that a methodology’s worth is valued by how well it supports or contradicts given narratives. This is a perennial issue in academia, one that Steven Levitt of Freakonomics fame has bemoaned that it taints most research including his.

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986

Some highly educated people at Dartmouth believe requiring testing will help them achieve their goals. Some highly educated people at Michigan believe not requiring testing will help them achieve their goals. These aren’t the same institutions…they can both be right (time will tell)

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987

I think that quoted comment was aimed at a previous comment saying it was indeed credulity straining.

(<> refers to “does not equal”)

990

Indeed. One of my kids worked at one of the local SAT/ACT prep shops and learned about the process. Apparently The College Board has historically been pretty resistant to providing accommodations. I don’t know if that is still the case, but the word back then was that you really needed to make your case with a lot of substantiation. Bringing it up in high school with no prior information about disability was apparently a big red flag, which made it hard on newly diagnosed kids.

You can generalize quite a bit about the types of parents a kid would need to work through that kind of institutional resistance and can see why it was a game for the upper class.

It’s too bad that the entire subject is imbued with negativity and skepticism. There are some really bright kids out there who can be very successful but for whom there are some academic road blocks that need management. I would actually defriend anyone who I knew was trying to game the system using a fake disability. It says a lot about you as a human being to go that far to get your kid into the “right school”.

IDK how anyone can take any of the varsity blues parents seriously ever again. That is a permanent tattoo IMO.

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991

Our experience was the opposite. We had a 504 meeting and the school brought up getting CB accommodations. ACT agreed immediately on all accommodations, CB did ask for a small bit of additional documentation to give full accommodation.

This was within the last 3 years.

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992

Good to know things have loosened up. Although, I think if you’re having a 504 meeting, there is already implied a good amount of legitimacy as to what’s going on.

994

The SAT correctly identified you as quantitatively gifted and your moniker is “HighIQPerson” ! Okay? Self-affirmation is nice, I suppose. But, I know many students who did not score a 750 on a MATH section who graduated in a TOP Stem program and more than held their own.

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996

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997

The achievement these days is knowing how to do well on the test. In a very gross scale, it is correlated with mastery of the material, but use in admissions requires a much finer scale test. Moreover, since it is possible to improve results by studying specifically for the SATs, that reduces its usefulness as a test for the wider mastery that is required for success in college.

Again, the point of these tests is to check whether students have mastery of the entire set of material that they learned. SATs often tests whether the student has studied for the SATs.

Why? That is not how they are expected to use this knowledge in any advanced college course, nor is that useful for their career. I have seen too many students who do well on multiple choice question fall to pieces when they are required to actually use the stuff that they learned in some other context.

There are few, if any, situation in real life in which, when you have to solve a problem, you are provided with a choice of solutions, and one of the solution is known to be correct. When faced with a problem you almost always have to come up with the solution on your own, and if your are provided with possible solutions, you are never certain that any of these are correct.

So, if the police illegally confiscate your car, and give it to me, since I’m the Sheriff’s brother-in-law, would you consider it to be stealing if the government takes it away from me and gives it to you? After all, that confiscation was in the past, and now the car is in my posession, so it’s mine. Taking it away from me to give to you is discrimination against me!

Yes I disagree, because I never thought that it was so valuable in the past either.

If that’s what provides “value” to a degree, it isn’t an academic degree, it’s club membership.

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998

I also know some middle class kids that performed very well on the SAT. One kid I know scored a 750 on the Math portion in the 7th grade and went on to earn high honors from Hopkins as part of the center for talented youth (CTY). My bet is that when he graduates from high school, he’ll be accepted to college and do great at STEM. He’s not rich, didn’t even study for the exam and I have no idea what his GPA is. But, guess what. He’s really good at math.

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999

Seems like mastery of basic algebra is a requirement for college. Maybe not depending on major. Perhaps, sociology, or social justice degree wouldn’t be required, or even encouraged for that matter.

I dont understand what you’re saying here. Who’s is your brother-in-law and what does that have to do algebra?

How many people get a degree of the University on Phoenix and how hard is it to get into? What’s it worth? This isn’t complicated.

1000

Wow. Is it really true that the SAT often "tests whether the student has studied for the SATs "? It shows no other ability? Even if what you say is true, there is an underlying skill set that suggests the ability to learn. In short, I think this is a rhetorical exaggeration, correct?

I do agree with the following, but that is why colleges consider other things that reflect personal characteristics like resilience, adaptability, conscientiousness, etc.

“There are few, if any, situation in real life in which, when you have to solve a problem, you are provided with a choice of solutions, and one of the solution is known to be correct. When faced with a problem you almost always have to come up with the solution on your own, and if you are provided with possible solutions, you are never certain that any of these are correct.”

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1001

Generally, students go to school to learn. Some students are better than others. How can you tell who is learning the material? I have an idea… let’s give them a test to see if they mastered the material. What do you think? Is that a good idea?

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1002

Perhaps true, but so what? The SAT never purports itself as anything related to real life. Do colleges have timed tests? Do colleges have tests with multiple choice answers?

That said, teh SAT does (or used to) test critical thinking and reasoning skills. And those are valuable in college (and in real life).

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