Hi there! My DD has finally settled on a major and would like to pursue physics in college (for now anyhow lol). She is deciding on an ED/REA at Brown/Stanford for her top reach school. Does anyone have any insight into the undergrad programs at these schools? Access to research opportunities/professors, general vibe (collegial vs competitive), any pros/cons - really anything is appreciated thank you!
In cases like this, my first question is always–why Stanford or Brown in the first place? What led her to those two particular colleges?
In part that is motivated by the fact that in many ways those are two very different colleges. Obviously totally different regions, and pretty different settings. Brown is known for having an extremely open curriculum, Stanford has a much more structured gen ed program. Brown has relatively modest graduate programs and only health-related professional schools, with more than twice as many undergrads. Stanford has very robust grad and professional programs, with more grad and professional students than undergrads. And so on.
So what is she really looking for in a college experience? Many colleges have excellent undergrad Physics generally, but is there some particular areas of interest for her within Physics? Otherwise, what is her vision of a great four years in college really look like? Academically, non-academically, on campus, off campus, and so on.
I would think reflecting on questions like this may make it fairly easy to form a preference between these colleges. And in my experience, usually the other would not end up the second choice for many kids, although of course that is up to them.
I think that overall, Stanford has more resources for physics than Brown, in part because of the robust graduate programs. (Linear Accelerator, etc.) Now, whether these would come to play in your D’s academic interests and path is another question.
Yeah, at a high level this is sort of like the LAC versus research university question in that sometimes even if your department as a whole does not have as much in the way of facilities, faculty, and so on, your practical access to what your department DOES have available AND that would actually be relevant to you, all as an undergraduate student specifically, ends up a potentially complicated question.
Brown of course is an R1 research university itself, but that classification is too broad to really capture the distinctions between a Brown and a Stanford. This is also too crude, but I think in some ways Brown and some other prominent colleges can be seen as a sort of half-step between an LAC and a Stanford-type research university.
As a result, I think some potential undergrad students see research universities like Brown as hitting the sweet spot. And others think it is LACs, and others institutions like Stanford (or perhaps publics which also have large and highly resourced doctoral programs and such in their area of interest).
But this is part of why I think often if a kid particularly likes Brown, the other colleges most like Brown may not include Stanford, and vice-versa. Which is fine, but then the critical question is which approach is in fact what you are looking for.
Or maybe you are really looking for something else? I think that some kids begin this process with a certain vision of their ideal college, and the more they investigate and reflect, they end up shifting to something different from what they were originally thinking. And speaking from experience, it is not in fact too late even for seniors to still be going through a process like that.
These are great insights - and great questions. It was really hard for her to narrow down a major as she is truly interested in a wide variety of fields - but physics is it. Her school choices are based on, for lack of a better word, “vibe” as she puts it. For all the schools we visit, she has an agenda - she sits in the student lounge/cafeteria and chats up people to see how friendly they are, she stands in a crowded part of campus holding a map looking lost and tracks how long it takes for someone to approach her, she emails professors beforehand to set up meetings or audit classes - FYI the Brown physics professor responded immediately on a Sunday and met with her for over an hour whilst she emailed 10 (!) Stanford professors and got no response FWIW. So yes, these schools ARE very different, but are the ones where she felt “happiest” I guess is the best way to put it. She’s leaning slightly Brown rn bc of her interaction with the prof but she liked the energy at both schools. She told me she realizes she could prob be happy at most any school she is looking at AND would like a school where there are options in case she decides physics is not her jam. Sorry, long-winded answer to your question. Would love to hear your thoughts!
SLAC is great and when we toured it, the Stanford PhDs giving the tours were fun. I think she is curious whether, since the grad and PhD programs are so strong, undergraduates might be second-class citizens or competing with them for research opps?
Based on that answer, it sure seems to me Brown would be a good first choice!
She liked the vibe, she hit it off with a professor in her possible department she found to be very accessible, and Brown is one of the best possible colleges to choose if you have an exploratory mindset at this point. Not that Stanford would be a bad choice, it is not like it is the exact opposite of Brown in these ways. But what you are describing as her priorities seem to really line up with Brown’s priorities as well.
Second-class citizens is probably too harsh, but obviously the graduate students tend to get priority for a lot of positions. More and more undergrads are interested in doing higher-level research, which is fine, but for a PhD student, research in their subfield is an absolute necessity. And so any decent doctoral program basically has to prioritize its PhD students, it wouldn’t be a decent doctoral program if it did not.
I want to emphasize this does not in my mind mean she would be crazy to prefer Stanford. I just think she is right to see this as one of many legitimate considerations when choosing an undergrad program.
Really appreciate your thoughtful insights!
I hate,when folks do what I’m about to do, but… has she looked at Yale? Maybe more aligned with Brown, vibe-wise, and very keen on women interested in fields like this and generous with opportunities for them.
Just thinking it might check many boxes.
Yes! It’s on her list - she really liked it, and the Yalies she met were all super thoughtful, nice kids. But probably wouldn’t put it above Brown/Stanford rn.
One kid even snuck her into the cafeteria where she said the food was AMAZING lol.
For future visits- your kid should stop by admissions and get a meal voucher. There is no need to sneak in… every college we visited (for each kid) wanted the prospective student to see a dining hall in action.
Oh that’s good to know!
Yes, and it’s also an excellent way to observe how students interact with each other. It can be another way to gauge friendliness, cliquqishness, etc.
Has she been able to see the course offerings in a given semester to see what an actual semester might be like?
Here is Brown’s online course catalog, with drop downs for different subject areas and semesters.
And here is a link with average workload and ratings (out of 5.0) for most of the classes.
My kid is a senior at brown (not physics) who took great advantage of the open curriculum and also changed potential concentrations (majors) several times. By taking summer classes (in lieu of extra classes during the year) he is graduating with a concurrent masters and bachelors in four years.
Happy to answer any Brown-related questions.
Oh that’s fantastic to hear - congrats to your son! It sounds like this wasn’t a problem for him in particular, but one comment my daughter heard from students when she visited was that it is sometimes hard to get the classes you need/want. What was his experience? On my end, I’m curious as to how much support the school provides with research/career opportunities or do they leave students to their own devices? Lastly, did Providence start to feel provincial after 4 years - do students go into Boston? Thanks so much in advance…
Also she has probably seen this but here are the physics requirements:
I think he got most of the classes he wanted and definitely got all that he needed. A couple of times he was shut out of a particular class of interest but was always able to find something else he liked just as much. Availability increases with seniority so it becomes less and less of a problem!
And although many classes have prerequisites, I have heard from other parents that if you can show the professor you can do the work you can often be admitted to the class even without the pre-req. (faculty override). I don’t think my kid did that much, but I will ask!
Lab work seems pretty easy to get (either paid or for course credit) — although easier for non-freshmen I think. He has used the career center and attended recruitment events but I think he has mostly found his opportunities on his own.
This might be helpful!
My kid did an UTRA (funded research) second semester sophomore year and then continued with that lab a couple of more semesters. He just switched to a better-fit lab (he changed majors) for his senior year.