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<p>Yay! Another convert! Please don’t hold back on posting—we’d all love to hear anything you have to share about the book. </p>
<p>As far as detail is concerned, I could never naturally retain all that info. Too old. 
I confess that my Kindle makes a great cheat sheet. I might have only a vague memory of a conversation in the story, but the “search” device eventually leads me where I want to go.</p>
<p>Don’t mean to belabor this point, but one more thing about “sinister” Dr Swenson</p>
<p>When Marina returns
** When she (marina) went inside she saw that her cot was gone.<br>
“I had them move it this afternoon. I didn’t think, you were coming back” **</p>
<p>Dr Swenson raised up her head. ** Barbara Bovender was right?" …
I don’t know another story to match this, Dr Swenson said, shaking her head" **
… the she finally states " ONE OF THE CANOES was missing. He must have crawled inside and floated away" …</p>
<p>Mmmmmmmm seems that she omitted this detail when telling Marina about Anders wandering off ??? A scientific mind like hers, omitting this detail ?</p>
<p>* Mary13 wrote-But I can’t see a motive in assuring Marina’s death. It wouldn’t help Dr. Swenson save face *</p>
<p>Marina’s death would have protected her lifelong work, the most important thing to this woman.</p>
<p>Welcome Momlive- I read this 3 weeks ago, and can’t even remember the main characters names. Scary what is forgotten.</p>
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<p>Well, as it turns out, there was a plan that worked, although they didn’t know it ahead of time: to sacrifice her only son (Easter!—so much Christian symbolism there) in exchange for Anders’ life. Unlike God, however, Dr. Swenson did not orchestrate this plan, as evidenced by her fury when she learns of Easter’s fate. Funny, now that I think about it, Dr. Swenson is sort of the “God” of the camp, isn’t she? The Lakashi revere her and fear her. </p>
<p>P.S. SJCM, if you want to see the page number, hit “menu” and it will show up at the bottom of the screen. Then hit “menu” again to make the box disappear.</p>
<p>SJCM, your points—all excellent ones—suggest that Dr. Swenson was happy to see Anders’ disappear (and moreover, omitted important details to ensure he wouldn’t be found) and took steps to ensure that Marina was swallowed up by the Amazon as well. Did Dr. Swenson fear Vogel’s intervention to the point where she was ready to contribute to the demise of their doctors? Did she feel that after Marina had served her purpose (performing the C-section), she could then be “disposed of”? I’m not sure I agree, but you are giving me an entirely new way to look at Dr. Swenson (whom I actually kind of liked, at least certain aspects of her personality).</p>
<p>Let’s see Dr Swenson, lied about Anders, and told a whopper about Easter. She is more of “obsessed” scientist to me, willing to do what ever it takes to protect her jungle.</p>
<p>I like Dr. Swenson. She’s single-minded, not sinister. I think she truly believed Dr. Eckman to be dead. A missing canoe … probably happened on occasion … no more telling than Marina’s missing luggage. To report Eckman as missing - a man she believed dead - would serve no useful purpose in Dr. Swenson’s view of things.</p>
<p>page 140:</p>
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<p>Dr. Swenson lies about Easter in much the same way. </p>
<p>page 345:</p>
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<p>I certainly think the adage “truth will out” applies here, but I almost feel sorry for Dr. Swenson. As the only person who knows the truth about Anders’ burial, or rather lack of, only Dr. Swenson can place Barbara Bovender’s “vision” in the right context. Once she’s aware Anders lives, she takes steps to rectify her wrongs.</p>
<p>By the way, I think the Hummocca suffer from “bad press.” Think about it: they don’t shoot to kill but rather warn away intruders. The tribe rescues Anders, heals him, and seems to accord him at least a modicum of respect … after all, he could have been served as an exotic dish for dinner. Understand I’m not saying the Hummocca are all sweetness and light - Anders makes that clear though I believe he knows that Easter won’t come to harm. Dr. Swenson’s assumptions (shame on her) about the Hummocca obviously fall on the side of wrong - particularly regarding Hummocca love for a child. Or maybe I just want to think of Easter as loved and eventually happy. ;)</p>
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<p>I think this is key. Anders loved Easter as much as Marina—they both wanted to take him home—and if he thought that some horrible fate awaited the boy, the final escape might have played out differently (and probably even more tragically).</p>
<p>Despite Easter’s attachment to Dr. Swenson, I think he craved parents (or at the very least, physical affection). Think of him leaping into the arms of Barbara and Jackie Bovender, and of how quickly he bonded with Anders and then with Marina. Maybe that overwhelming joyful embrace from the Hummocca is what he needs, and maybe somewhere buried in his memory (he was four years old after all, not an infant), he will realize he’s home.</p>
<p>I actually agree with Dr. Swenson that taking Easter out of the jungle would have been a disaster. Clearly Anders and Marina would have tried it even though he would not have fit in in Minnesota anymore than Anders or Marina fit in the jungle. (Though I do have to say, Marina did adapt surprisingly well.) What was shocking to me as a reader was Easter’s clear terror at being taken by by the Hummocca, the brutality of it, and the fact that Patchett chose not to calm us, as readers, that Easter will be OK. We’re left to speculate, like Mary13 above, that someday he’ll realize he’s home. But that doesn’t change fact that the last time we saw this loved, and lovable, character is while he’s terrorized and clearly feeling utterly betrayed.</p>
<p>My goodness, I completely missed the fact that Marina might be pregnant! </p>
<p>A few of my observations and questions:</p>
<p>Name symbolism: We’ve talked about Easter. He was sacrificed to pay for Anders’ return, but OTOH, was resurrected to his own family. Marina: A marina is the place where boats rest; a place of refuge and safety. So our Marina is a place of rest, refuge and safety for whom? For Dr. Swenson, who increasingly leans on her? Or for Dr. Swenson’s work (she seems to be grooming Marina to take over for her)? In rescuing Anders, she’s his marina? Maybe just for that one night? For Easter? Although he has also bonded with Annick, Anders and the Bovenders. Another name: Mr. Fox. He seems too plodding and unimaginative to fit the description. (And does anyone find it odd that he’s called “Mr. Fox” throughout?)</p>
<p>Marina’s dreams of her father were so interesting to me. At home, there was the dream where he is leading her through a growing crowd, but lets go her hand and goes on without her, seeming not to notice. In Manaus, though, she had a very different dream: “That night, which was her first night of fever, she dreamed that she and her father were paddling a small boat down a river in the jungle and that the boat turned over. Her father drowned and she was left alone in the water. The boat had gotten away. Marina had forgotten that her father didn’t know how to swim.” So as she approaches the Amazon, there’s a fundamental shift; now Marina is the powerful one who is responsible for the other, and loses the other through carelessness. Unlike her father, though, she notices she’s lost him. And she feels her aloneness, whereas her father eagerly went on to whatever was drawing him.</p>
<p>I really really liked the relationship that Marina and Karen were developing before Marina went into the jungle. Marina has no women in her life; no friends, sisters, mother, even a friendly co-worker. Will they be able to continue their friendship now? Especially since she may be pregnant with Karen’s husband’s baby? Does Karen have to know it’s Anders’ baby? For that matter, does Anders have to know?</p>
<p>Trees are so important in this book. There’s the treeless landscape of Minnesota, so barren and empty – where Marina is barren and empty. The Amazon couldn’t be a more different place; crowded with trees, lush with life (I’ve heard the jungle called “earth’s lungs”) but also filled with danger and mystery. Here is where Marina finds life: the love of a child, hands-on healing instead of sterile lab work, courage to kill a snake and deliver a baby, passionate sex (compare to her encounters with Mr. Fox), perhaps her own fertility. And of course, there’s the special case of the Martin trees – literally life-giving.</p>
<p>I enjoyed this book a lot – as I have the other Patchett books I’ve read. It’s hard for me to put into words, but I just like the way she writes – the words she uses and how she strings them together.</p>
<p>Anyway, I got that Marina might be pregnant, but missed the clue that she definitely was. I don’t see her going back to Mr. Fox under any circumstances, pregnant or not. I have a picture in my mind of him as totally straight-laced, uptight, and “proper” – not warm at all. He could hardly acknowledge Marina when he showed up in the jungle.</p>
<p>Dr. Swenson? I’m not really sure how I feel about her. Initially she seemed so cold and clinical, but then there were glimpses of something approaching warmth/humanness. But the way she kept using death as a convenient excuse – Anders? Oh, he died so I buried him; case closed. Easter? I told the Hummoca he died; case closed. I guess I’ve never known anyone IRL as singly focused on something as Dr. Swenson, so I really can’t relate to her.</p>
<p>Foreshadowing – it was clear to me from the moment Marina runs into Dr. Swenson at the Opera House that she (Swenson) would end up remembering Marina’s mistake at Johns Hopkins. (BTW, did anyone else look up that Opera House? It’s magnificent – so seemingly out of place in the jungle.) And how many thought Anders would be found alive? I did, early on in the book when Karen kept saying he’s only “missing.” But, I didn’t make the connection to Anders when Barbara Bovender arrived saying she thought she had seen her father.</p>
<p>One logistical issue I had was about Marina realizing her bad dreams were caused by the larium, but continuing to take it. There are other anti-malarial drugs that don’t have the same side effects – even if they may not be as good, they’re better than nothing.</p>
<p>Oh, and one more tidbit of info – I read somewhere that Patchett named the Lakashi tribe after her favorite cereal. I had to laugh at that one.</p>
<p>As others are saying, (much better than I could) the book is rich with symbolism.</p>
<p>I was a little disappointed that nothing developed between Marina and Milton-he always appeared as a bright spot and rescuer for her. I didn’t like that Anders and Marina had a fling-it seemed very out of charactor to their previous realationship. I also thought it was interesting how the jungle and the Brazilian city was always portrayed with a certain feeling of dread and lurking danger and gloom-contrasted to Minnesota’s very open and safe suburban feel.</p>
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<p>I loved Milton—charming, competent and insightful. Even Marina recognizes his worth. After he makes a particularly kind comment to her, she reflects, “It occurred to Marina then that she should have run off with Milton that first moment she saw him in the airport.” (p. 320) And she is overjoyed to see him when he arrives near the end:</p>
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<p>She is far less enthused to discover that her lover, Mr. Fox, is there too.</p>
<p>Question 14 mentions Milton as one of the rich symbols in the novel. What do you think he symbolizes? I thought of Charon, the guide on the River Styx. (I don’t think that’s far-fetched—Patchett introduces the Greek element to us through the opera Orfeo ed Eurdice.) Charon is the ferryman who takes the dead across the River Styx to Hades. If that isn’t proof enough of the symbol, look what else I found (!):</p>
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<p>Mary13, that fits so well, VERY INTERESTING. These symbols, motifs, and advanced literary devices are beyond my scope, so I resort to finding tidbits of information in blogs and in interviews.
From a readers review of the book
Remember the “harpy” sighted as the group left the jungle. </p>
<p>** A harpy eagle, reminiscent of the harpies of mythology, puts in an appearance, toting a soul to Hades, no doubt. **</p>
<p>I have never read, nor know nothing more than John Milton wrote ** Paradise Lost **. I found this on a website devoted to the study of Paradise Lost. The depiction on the first page- Woman shackled to the “tree of knowledge” with a snake coiled around her seems appropriate, but I’ll let Mary 13 and others decide if this John Milton might be inspiration for this character. </p>
<p>[Darkness</a> Visible Homepage - A resource for studying Milton’s Paradise Lost](<a href=“http://www.christs.cam.ac.uk/darknessvisible/index.html]Darkness”>http://www.christs.cam.ac.uk/darknessvisible/index.html)
*Book I of Paradise Lost introduces Milton’s intention to write a great epic of lasting literary importance about the biblical story of the Fall of Man, Adam and Eve’s expulsion from Paradise, and the consequences of eating fruit from the Tree of Knowledge *</p>
<p>** PATheaterMom-remember this scene with Milton **
From another web site- a reader describes this scene with Milton, which I forgot.</p>
<p>* He walked her into the water up to their knees and then up to their waists. It was like a bath, silky and warm. The current was so slight it barely disturbed her clothes. She wanted to lie down in it. Milton dipped his own handkerchief into the water and spread it wet over the top of her head. “It’s better, isn’t it,” he said, though it wasn’t a question.*</p>
<p>Great discussion everyone! I loved this book. Told my H he needs to read it. I also think I need to read it again. It seems I missed a lot of the symbolism.</p>
<p>Dr. Swenson – I really found it hard to like her, but was able to feel sorry for her. She was too single minded and self-centered in her quest. I don’t think she is a happy person and Patchett allows us to see her vulnerability. Her relationship with Dr. Rapp shows this vulnerability. In that relationship she appears blindly devoted and willing to settle for the role of mistress (or maybe that was the role she preferred?). She feeds Rapps ego and loses herself in the relationship. The mushrooms (Rapps), the trees (Martins) and the moths (Purple Martinets) were all named after Rapp. No credit to Swenson. On page 264 we read
This seems an odd characteristic in a woman who was a trailblazer for women in medicine. I also feel Swenson wanted the baby for more than research reasons. She has regrets.</p>
<p>To add to LasMa’s thoughts on name symbolism - It hadn’t occurred to me to look at the symbolism in Marina’s name, but I think you’re right. Anders definitely docked his boat in the “Marina”, as did Mr. Fox. The baby that is growing is also in the Marina for “rest, refuge and safety”.</p>
<p>I also don’t see any future for Marina with Mr. Fox, even if she wasn’t pregnant. He needed her to fill a void, but it wasn’t a relationship that was going anywhere. If his name is intentional symbolism, then he would be sly and cunning. Was he? He seemed to care more about the research and getting a drug on the market, than he did about Marina. </p>
<p>CBBLINKER – I also thought Anders was still alive, although I started doubting myself when it took so long in the book to find him. When Barbara saw her “father” in the woods, I immediately thought it was Anders.
I think this description tell us that Marina is a woman without roots. Her coloring didn’t fit in Minnesota, but she also didn’t belong with her father in India. Even in the story, she’s happy when she gets closer to the Martins because there are fewer roots and more of an open clearing. I think it’s very interesting on page 258 when Nancy tells us that the Martins are “actually just one tree,…It’s a single root system. The tree is cloning itself.” There must be some symbolism there. Dr. Rapp, Dr. Swenson, Marina, are they all people without their own roots?</p>
<p>Mary and SJCM - I like the thoughts on the Milton symbolism. I’m sure the name was intentional. It seems they all were intentional, either for symbolism, or a personal connection to the author.</p>
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<p>SJCM, that’s perfect. Given the above, I wouldn’t doubt for a second that the name of the character Milton is an allusion to the poet Milton. And Milton-lovers out there will undoubtedly remember one of the best-known lines of Paradise Lost:</p>
<p>Better to reign in hell, than serve in heav’n.</p>
<p>I can’t help but think of Dr. Swenson.</p>
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<p>This one has me stumped. What does everyone else think?</p>
<p>^^^ As Marina travels into the Amazon, it almost seems she travels back in time. The locale, basic survival, and the sheer realization of all that’s unknown lead back to the title for me: “wonder” as in “awe” at life on planet Earth and “wonder” in terms of thinking about the ethics of those possibilities. </p>
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<p>Well said.</p>
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<p>I had the exact opposite reaction. I admit to not liking the inclusion of dream sequences as a literary technique. In State of Wonder I definitely felt a need to understand the deeper meaning of Marina’s dreams … and honestly I didn’t and still don’t. To me, the medicine gave her nightmares which consistently tapped into her father abandonment issues. Okay … so. I noted that the dream changed location, but dreams do that. Anyway, to me, Marina’s nightmare intersects with reality: “He [Easter] stretched out his hands to her and Marina closed her eyes. She left him there. She let him go.” (p. 342) Marina’s nightmare (which never actually happened to her) becomes Easter’s reality. In effect, she passed that nightmare on … or maybe now it will flare up with her taking the place of her dad and Easter the panicked child.</p>
<p>Milton - great character.</p>
<p>Mr. Fox - I don’t like him. He wants to find Dr. Swenson and sacrifices Marina in order to do so. </p>
<p>Dr. Swenson - I listened to State of Wonder on a road trip. I think the reader helped me like Dr. Swenson. When I read the book last week, I could “hear” Dr. Swenson speaking: so no nonsense, let’s move along, neither kind or unkind. I might like Dr. Swenson less had I not listened to the audio.</p>
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<p>I get that. My schooling in psychology included studying dreams, so I always love dream sequences. But as I read it, you did get the point of the pre-jungle dreams. She’d start out under her father’s protection, but as the scene became more crowded, he’d get interested in other things and forget about Marina. </p>
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<p>The earlier dreams do change location, but they are the same dream. But the final dream, the one in which her father drowns, is altogether different. She and her father have switched places. Going into the Amazon is a fundamental change in Marina, qualitatively different than anything she’s done before. She has taken control of her life, no longer dependent on her father (or by extension, any other authority figure) for safety and direction, and to me, that’s what this dream tells us. It also makes me think she will return to the jungle. She is no longer going to do the safe thing, the expected thing. </p>
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<p>I hadn’t caught that, but IMO you’re dead-on. “She let him go.” This describes her father’s way of abandoning her. He didn’t run away from her, he didn’t reject her or or push her away – he simply let her go. Her new independence comes with a heavy price: the lost child.</p>
<p>* ** Las Ma** I agree I’d love to read more reader’s opinions about the title!*</p>
<p>Ignatius nice discussion above.
Do you think *Marina’s nightmare (which never actually happened to her) becomes Easter’s reality. *</p>
<p>Perhaps this was exactly her dream/ subconscious fear realized? </p>
<p>Easter had become her "loved"one,
the person she depended on in the jungle,
her “protecter”, and she was left alone. </p>
<p>Ignatius, you would NOT have liked Patchett’s original draft of the book, with 50 pages of dream sequences, nor would I. </p>
<p>From Interview:<a href=“ABC Radio National”>ABC Radio National;
<p>Kate Pearcy: ** Let’s talk about some of the technical issues in the book because there are passages where Marina is taking pills for malaria and she experiences nightmares as a side effect, and there are passages moving between the real time of the novel and her nightmares. Was that difficult to do, to keep it coherent?**</p>
<p>Ann Patchett: No, and it’s so funny that you should ask me that because when I wrote this book, those sections with her father in the Lariam dreams were very long, and much, much more a part of the novel.
And I have a very good friend who’s a novelist, Elizabeth McCracken who is the person who reads all my work and gives me all of my advice.</p>
<p>When she read the book when I was about half-way through with it she said, **‘Oh enough with the dreams motif. You do this over and over again. In all of your books you have thoughtful dead people showing up to give good advice, you’ve got to dump this.’ **</p>
<p>And I said, ‘Well, I need it in a part because Lariam and the dreams play a big role in the book.’ And she said, ‘Okay, but you’ve got to cut it back to the bare minimum.’ So I dumped probably 50 pages of the book that were the dreams. So no, it wasn’t hard, in fact it was so easy
, I really ran on with it for too long.
And let me say one more thing about the Lariam, that’s a perfect example of what we were talking about earlier in terms of the believability of science. So many people have said, ‘Oh there really isn’t this drug that makes people commit suicide and have nightmares that they take for malaria.’ But that I didn’t make up, that’s absolutely true.</p>
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<p>Yes, it is true, but as CBBBlinker pointed out earlier, there are other options that, strangely, Marina chooses not to take. Yes, they are more of a hassle (once a week for Lariam vs. every day for Malarone), but given the side effects Marina experiences, her choice is hard to believe. Part of me says that this is a weakness in Patchett’s story—that she went with it because she wanted those dream sequences so badly—and yet, she is such a strong writer that this seems too glaring an error.</p>
<p>So I am going to throw this out there: Do you think Marina continues to take the Lariam because on a subconscious level, she wants the dreams, in order to see her father again?</p>
<p>And along those same lines…I should have added one more reason in my earlier post as to why Marina has an affair with Mr. Fox: She is searching for a father figure. This could also be why she always thinks of him with the formal title “Mr.”—like a dad or a friend of your dad. It’s a little twisted, but those Oedipal/Electra complexes run deep. </p>
<p>[side story: My son took Malarone during six months he spent in Asia. One of his peers took Lariam and loved the dreams. Thought they were crazy-wonderful, best recreational drug ever. :)]</p>