<p>Agree Ignatius - would ** LOVE** to hear from all those CCers who post before the discussion begins. Interested in all those questions you ask above!</p>
<p>And, Bookiemom- who suggested we reread the last chapter!</p>
<p>Looking forward to hearing from more of you out there !</p>
<p>I’m mostly a lurker, but I’ve been enjoying keeping up with this discussion. I’ll ditto the thanks to SJCM for the quote about literary chemistry. I’m a visual artist, and I’ve been doing a lot of thinking lately about the importance of leaving some things unsaid/unstated/ambiguous (depending on your choice of art form). It seems to me that art is more engaging when the reader/viewer has to connect some dots. If everything is spelled out for us, there is nothing left for us to think about (to WONDER about) when we leave the work. We may think it is beautiful, but we don’t take it with us. All of Patchett’s books leave me in a state of wonder(ing).</p>
<p>^well done shyparentalunit- I love the way you expressed that Patchett’s books leave you
in a state of Wonder (awe)
and Wondering (questioning).</p>
<p>I’m a lurker. I didn’t read State of Wonder because I was afraid I wouldn’t like it.</p>
<p>I read Bel Canto and it made me uncomfortable for reasons I couldn’t quite put my finger on. There was something that seemed superficial about it that left a bad taste in my mouth.</p>
<p>So I read some of the more articulate negative reader reviews of Bel Canto on Amazon, and I found that I agreed with the things they said.</p>
<p>There are quite a number of very articulate, very negative reader reviews of State of Wonder on Amazon as well.</p>
<p>NJTheatreMOM, thanks for posting! </p>
<p>Sometimes I’ll browse Amazon and read one-star reviews of books that I loved and just cringe at the negative comments. How could they say such silly things?! 
And other times, I will read five-star reviews of books that I hated and cringe at the positive comments. What planet are they on?! :)</p>
<p>There’s no accounting for tastes, and State of Wonder is the same as any other work of art in that regard. A five-star review describes it as “a moving, emotional, heart wrenching and awe inspiring story” and a one-star review calls it “mostly drivel and poor effort.” Nearly all the posters are articulate and thoughtful about views that are completely in opposition. It’s kind of fascinating, in a way. </p>
<p>One of the things I like about our CC discussion threads is that analyzing the book and reading other people’s opinions always gives me a greater appreciation for what the author was trying to do–and this has been especially important for books I haven’t been too crazy about.</p>
<p>Yes, I did finish it and loved it - but not as much as Bel Canto. I found the characters in Bel Canto more likable - even the kidnappers were more likable than Mr. Fox and Dr. Swensen! They were interesting characters, but I can’t say that I liked them. </p>
<p>It did take me a bit to get into it. One of the first books I read on my kindle, so I don’t know what page I was up to when it finally grabbed me, but it had to be at least 30%. </p>
<p>Thanks for asking.</p>
<p>Mary13, I know what you mean about the Amazon reviews. Sometimes they surprise me too.</p>
<p>I can see why people would like the lyricism and startling twists of Bel Canto. But I thought the characters in that book didn’t really seem like real, multi-dimensional people, and I felt that the story was overly romanticized. I just like my fiction grittier, I guess.</p>
<p>A number of the Amazon reviewers said that the science in State of Wonder was very far-fetched and improbable. I think that would bother me if I read the book. I just like my science fiction to be a little more plausible, I guess.</p>
<p>I am very much enjoying every one’s interesting insights! I felt that there were so many details of the story I wanted to explore further-I still want to know who the father of Dr. Swenson’s baby is! I actually liked the young couple (the Bovenders). I did want them to move on with their lives but they were quite likable. I also thought that they were one of the few couples in the book that seemed to have a healthy realationship. I felt that Anders and Karen had a deep abiding love-I didn’t like the turn in the story at the end where Anders and Marina make love. Also felt like the birth defect that Dr. Swenson’s baby had was symbolic.</p>
<p>^^^ I like the Bovenders too. 
Barbara, in particular, seems to be someone who’s more than the sum of her parts - and her parts “sum up” nicely … easy to overlook what she’s capable of because of her looks. Barbara - at 23 - functions as a more than decent gatekeeper. The home she makes in Manaus for Dr. Swenson starts as a wreck and ends up sparsely beautiful. She deals with Marina’s illness as though she herself has the medical degree - and afterwards dresses Marina for a night at the opera - from nurse to beautician without breaking a sweat.</p>
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<p>I also agree that the Bovenders seem the couple with the healthy relationship.</p>
<p>Anders Eckman loves Karen … but it seems that Karen has just a tinge less confidence about that love: </p>
<p>“It was true she [Marina] knew Karen, but only as well as a forty-two-year-old woman with no children knows a forty-three-year-old woman with three, as well as any single woman who works with the husband ever knows the wife who stays at home. Marina understood that Karen had made a point of knowing her even if Karen had not consciously mistrusted her.” </p>
<p>I feel the need to add here that Karen will feel so betrayed when all is said and done - as well she should.</p>
<p>Barbara Bovender suffers no lack of confidence about her marriage … anything really … well, until the trip down the river to find Dr. Swenson. Under the circumstances, a lack of confidence seems smart.</p>
<p>I thought that Anders & Marina coming together was inevitable, although I was whispering, “No, no, no!” to myself as it unfolded. Someone earlier mentioned that she was disappointed that they had a “fling”. I didn’t think of it as a fling, to me it was seeking comfort and finding refuge after their traumas. Although I didn’t want them to betray Karen in that way, and wished it hadn’t happened, I totally expected it. When I initially read it I felt it was a one time thing - a reaction to their circumstances and would not be something they carried forward with at home, or even ever addressed in the future. BUT, I totally missed the clues that she conceived that night. Very impressed with those of you who picked that up, and now that it was pointed out, yes, I see it! That certainly does change everything about their coming together. Really leaves their future open to so many interpretations.</p>
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<p>30% is almost exactly the point Dr. Swenson appeared, which is when the novel kicked into high gear for me. Not that I didn’t enjoy the first part, but there is definitely a sense of waiting, wondering (again!) when the real drama would begin.</p>
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<p>Absolutely—a point driven home by the sentence, “[Marina] walked naked into the bedroom, a towel around her head, to find the room was clean and Barbara Bovender was sitting in a chair by the window reading the New England Journal of Medicine.” (And she takes it with her –“Before Marina had a chance to answer, Barbara Bovender and the New England Journal of Medicine were gone.” [p. 120])</p>
<p>Barbara has a bit of “Barbie”about her—youth, blond-haired beauty and a vast wardrobe—which makes it easy to forget how competent she is. She’s a cool customer, traveling for days down the Amazon, dodging flying arrows and barely escaping with her life, all while managing to look fashionable in “a short khaki colored dress with a stunning number of pockets.” (p. 298)</p>
<p>With that in mind, compare Barbara Bovender’s wardrobe to Marina’s. Every description of Barbara touches on what she is wearing—usually dressed to the nines, always in something different: “a sleeveless silk top in emerald green,” “a short ivory colored dress that showed the full length of her legs,” “white linen pants and a tight navy top,” etc.</p>
<p>Marina, on the other hand, loses her luggage—twice!—and spends the latter half of the novel in the Lakashi “crude,” “dull-colored” shift–and is far more comfortable in that than the silk dress Barbara loans her for the opera. What does this say about Marina? That she wants no part of her former “civilized” life? (“’She’s gone completely native,’ Alan said to Mr. Fox.” [p. 316])</p>
<p>Such a great discussion! so much better than any in-person book group I’ve been in!</p>
<p>I have read many Patchett books, and this was my least favorite. In my opinion, it was too heavy-handed and contrived. I am enjoying the analysis we are having more than the book. On the one hand, there is a lot of interesting symbolism to explore, but it felt too intentional to me, instead of coming through more subtlely. I feel the author’s presence, more than the natural outflow of a story, if that makes any sense.</p>
<p>I almost feel like this is still a draft, like the author is laying out the dramatic arc and themes of the story and now needs further revision to make a more fluid tale. </p>
<p>I don’t know if anyone will understand what I"m trying to say.</p>
<p>What did you all think of her Patron Saint of Liars? I just downloaded it. Going overseas this weekend and choosing between that and The Kitchen House for the long plane ride.</p>
<p>Good Morning-it’s so great to hear from more CCers.
Please others continue to post, because the discussions are * more fun with more participants.*</p>
<p>PATheaterMom- good point that the Bovenders were the only “happy” couple in the book.</p>
<p>Islfs-I ,also, said “no, no, no” when Marina fell from “grace” with Anders. But, I’m realizing that is Patchett’s hallmark. She throws people from different places together, in a “foreign” place, and tests them.Some of them fail and that makes her books memorable, characters complex. At least that what she did with Bel Canto, which I read right before reading State of Wonder, sorry that I can’t weigh in on your book selections.</p>
<p>SDonCC-you actually summarized the way I felt about this book. I completely understand what you are saying!
Perhaps, this isa book which cannot be read in a “state of disbelief”, but rather a “state of wonder” or as others discovered they didn’t like it or didn’t read it.</p>
<p>I just discovered an excellent Patchett interview with Powells. She discusses the “intense” editing she had to do for the book.
Beyond cutting 50 pages of dreams (Ignatius is happy), and those dreams were much more critical to the book (Mary13) as you suspected.
But, Elizabeth Gilbert, insisted Patchett cut out many, many words, and pages because it took too long to get the “jungle” scenes, like 75 pages too long.
Perhaps this is what you mean when you say the book feels like first draft?</p>
<p>Really this interview will be interesting and might answer why SDonCC and others felt this book contrived, and heavy handed.</p>
<p>[PowellsBooks.Blog</a> – Ann Patchett: The Powells.com Interview - Powell’s Books](<a href=“Powell's Books Blog”>Powell's Books Blog)</p>
<p>Thanks for the link, SJCM. Great interview!</p>
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<p>The novel never felt like a draft to me. On the contrary, Patchett’s remarks about heeding the good advice of Liz Gilbert and Elizabeth McCracken, and her process of going over the book “with a little fine toothed comb” to tighten the story suggest that a great deal of thought and time went into producing the final result. I thought all the elements of the story were woven together very skillfully. So as to that particular criticism, I guess I can only say what Dr. Saturn said to Nancy, “I hear you …And I appreciate what you’re saying.” (p. 231) </p>
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<p>This is exactly what I love about reading a novel. I’ve even used the crossword puzzle example when talking to my kids about analyzing what they’re reading. It’s another example of that literary chemistry between author and reader, where “You bring your imagination, they bring theirs, and together you make a book.” </p>
<p>I loved Ann Patchett’s story about her real-life encounter with the anaconda (courtesy of Greg Greer). You have to admit she sure did the research for that passage!</p>
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<p>I haven’t read it, but I am about to download it, having really enjoyed both Bel Canto and State of Wonder.</p>
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<p>SJCM and SDonCC, just as a P.S. to what I said above – I do agree with the necessity of walking into the story with a firm “suspension of disbelief” – but I’m more of a romantic than a scientist, so that wasn’t hard for me.</p>
<p>Thanks for the interview link, SJCM. When do you think Patchett will write about clowns?</p>
<p>^ LOL – I’ll buy THAT book in hardcover!</p>
<p>I like State of Wonder and plan at some point to pick up another book by Ann Patchett. Yet, I don’t feel the need to do so immediately. I notice that many of you seem to prefer other books of hers more than this one … which in itself encourages me to read more. Run, maybe? </p>
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<p>I so agree.</p>
<p>Now, back to State of Wonder:</p>
<p>Mention after mention of the slow start, but none about the fraught ending, which bothered me more. In the last chapter … last 25 or so pages:</p>
<p>– We learn Dr. Swenson’s baby had Sirenomelia.</p>
<p>– We learn that Anders Eckman lives … but with the canniballistic Hummocca tribe.</p>
<p>– Marina traverses the Amazon to rescue Dr. Eckman … successfully.</p>
<p>– Marina loses Easter to the Hummocca in a heart-wrenching scene.</p>
<p>– Once back to safety, Anders and Marina seek comfort sexually with each other.</p>
<p>– Marina conceives, but the pregnancy remains unaddressed since the major players remain unaware.</p>
<p>– Marina and Anders leave the Lakashi, stop over in Manaus, and make it back to Minnesota where Marina drops Anders at home for a joyful reunion with his family.</p>
<p>Marina’s pregnancy happens to be my personal sticking point. Rather Marina pregnant by Anders bothers me. Even Mr. Fox, maybe … I don’t like him but I don’t have to like him, do I? Milton … never would’ve happened … I feel Marina’s pregnancy weighing on me, and I don’t like the feeling. </p>
<p>Too much ended up in the last 25 or so pages and any good (Anders alive) ended up tamped down by bad (the loss of Easter, the “friends with benefits” interlude with the far-reaching and unfortunate consequence). And darn it … Marina knows she flirting with fertility and still ups the ante by making the first move. A part of me feels she takes advantage of Anders in what has to be the weakest moment of his life. (Evidently, I feel some resentment here. :))</p>
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<p>It bothered me too, and you put your finger on it. Although Anders responds to Marina’s advance, I don’t think he would ever have initiated it himself. And I read a great deal of regret in the first words he says to her the next morning, “Oh, Marina.” </p>
<p>It’s interesting to think of them in terms of Orfeo ed Eurydice, the opera that Marina sees in Manaus and describes as “the story of her life.”</p>
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<p>It’s as if Marina, in her mental exhaustion, takes her job as proxy too far, and assumes Karen’s role in bed as well her role as rescuer.</p>
<p>In the myth of Orfeo ed Eurydice, Orfeo makes a mistake at the last moment—when they are almost out of hell—and looks back at Eurydice, a decision that destroys both of them forever. I hate to think of that as being a metaphor for Anders and Marina’s future. One glimmer of hope is that Gluck’s opera—which Marina saw—alters the traditional tragic ending, and the gods give Orfeo back his life, and Eurydice, as a reward for his devotion.</p>