<p>The start didn’t feel slow to me at all. It was definitely a stage-setting phase, but it was essential. For me, it built anticipation.</p>
<p>Thanks for the interview link-that was reallyinteresting! Still loving everyone’s insights! I keep on mentioning how much it bothered me about Marina and Anders sleeping together-but her being pregnant by him just changes so drastically what happens after the book is ended.
It seemed to me that Easter was the only native person sympathetically portrayed-did anyone else feel that way? All the members of the tribe were clearly described as being “other” and as part of the deep alien jungle-unless I’m missing or forgetting another charactor that was portrayed in a deeper way.
I love the tie in with Orfeo ed Eurydice.</p>
<p>PAtheatermom-**It seemed to me that Easter was the only native person sympathetically portrayed-did anyone else feel that way? **</p>
<p>Great point! I did feel that way. I expected this story to pit Evil- Big- Pharma vs Environmentalism, and it never did.
You are right, the tribal people/lifestyle were depicted as inferior to the “educated researchers”, and that surprised me.
It wasn’t a ‘politically correct’ book in that way.</p>
<p>Also, agree with Mary13’s comments about Orfeo and Eurydice!</p>
<p>Ignatius
Would you have felt better about the ending of the “book” if Marina had not gotten pregnant?
I think **most ** readers missed that detail about the ending, and had it not been for **Bookiemom <a href=“are%20you%20out%20there”>/b</a> I would have missed it.</p>
<p>Mary13, Did some reading about Orpheus (learned so much).
You wrote-
alters the traditional tragic ending, and the gods give Orfeo back his life, and Eurydice, as a reward for his devotion.</p>
<p>In Patchett’s story, is Marina- Orfeo, going to Hades in search of the beloved, and Anders (Eurydice) the reward ? (Even if only for a night?)</p>
<p>I’m amused. 
I just realized that I own a book written by Ann Patchett’s mother.</p>
<p>SJCM: Yeah, I’d prefer Marina not to be pregnant.</p>
<p>** Ignatius ** let’s play the alternative ending game. </p>
<p>What if Marina, had sex with Anders, but was NOT pregnant, and then completed her misison, delivered him to his family,
and then “drove onward” toward the rest of her life. </p>
<p>Wouldn’t that have been so sad, after risking her life, only to return to her “invisible” corporate life.
Wouldn’t she have been a ‘tragic’ heroine? Where would be the arc in her development?</p>
<p>Who is Ann Patchett’s mother ? A writer ?</p>
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<p>The action-packed ending was probably too frenetic, but to tell you the truth, I wasn’t attuned to any structural flaws because I was too busy eagerly turning the pages to find out what was going to happen next.</p>
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<p>Yep, that’s me she’s talking about. </p>
<p>The book was also a page-turner for me because I didn’t put two and two together as well as some of the rest of you. When Barbara Bovender had her vision, it never occurred to me that it might be Anders. The only thought that popped into my head was, “What’s this? Another character with father issues?” 
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<p>I agree and I saw this as a weakness in the book. The Lakashi were depicted as childlike (climbing gleefully onto boats, taking and wearing clothes that don’t belong to them, obsessively doing one another’s hair, etc.) I don’t know much about Amazon tribes, but my guess is that their long-term survival has depended upon intelligent leadership, respected elders, family responsibilities and division of labor. But we didn’t see any of that in State of Wonder The Lakashi were as simple and biddable as pets or toddlers, and that didn’t feel right. </p>
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<p>I don’t think that sleeping with Anders was Marina’s reward; I think it was her transgression. Like Orfeo, she had a momentary lapse in judgment with far-reaching consequences. But Marina did prove her devotion—she underwent a difficult journey to find Anders and unhesitatingly risked her life for him—so perhaps the reward from the gods for this devotion is the child that she will bear. It’s just bittersweet that in order for her to have this gift, other people will suffer.</p>
<p>SJCM - I would have felt better if Marina did not get pregnant. The sleeping together and getting pregnant seems too much of a soap opera ending. I know there’s deeper meaning, but I would have preferred a different ending. </p>
<p>
If Marina wasn’t pregnant, she would probably go back to the Amazon to continue Dr. Swenson’s work. That is where I thought the book was heading…until the end. I think that would also be a sad ending.</p>
<p>Having been reading all the posts and am enjoying the “discussion” a lot! When we did “Run” in my RL book club, there was much more discussion than with some other (non-Patchett) books.</p>
<p>Can’t remember who posted which comments (and I’m too lazy to go back to find out!) but a couple of thoughts: Sounds like I may be in the minority, but I didn’t find the beginning slow. As I was reading Marina’s dream sequences I did think, “Huh? What’s this all about?” So I guess I’m glad Patchett chopped them down in length, but they didn’t annoy me. And then, or course, the dreams became more relevant to the entire story as the book progressed.</p>
<p>I was also surprised to find out there were other doctors at the research site. For some reason I had the impression it was just Dr. Swenson out there in the jungle, with Easter, of course. And how perfect that he is deaf and mute – he provides companionship but can’t disagree, talk back, or interfere with her work. Speaking of which – I did find it somewhat unbelievable that she really expected Vogel to keep pumping in the money without expecting regular reports and updates on her progress. How far would she have gotten without all the company cash?</p>
<p>Marina having sex with Anders? Not all that improbable, IMO. They have both been through an incredibly terrifying experience, and the desire for physical and emotional closeness must have been overwhelming. Perhaps you can fault Marina for initiating things, but Anders would have been almost defenseless. He was with the Hummocas for what? 3-4 months? I can’t imagine his mental state after seeing his first (only, for all he knew) chance of a rescue (Barbara Bovender, et al) disappear down the river.</p>
<p>Questions: Does Marina know or even suspect that she’s pregnant? Why did the Hummocca keep Anders alive? (Sorry if these have been brought up/discussed earlier – as I said, I’m too lazy to go back to look.)</p>
<p>Excellent question CBBBlinker-I don’t know and very interested, too!</p>
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<p>Dr. Swenson believed she was entitled to the financial support, no questions asked. That part was believable to me—it certainly fit in with her overall attitude. As for Vogel continuing to pump in money, wouldn’t her needs be a pittance when viewed in light of the billions and billions of dollars made and expended by a pharmaceutical company? I’m not sure the big honchos would care (bet they spend more on a corporate getaway weekend than Dr. Swenson spends in a year at Rodrigo’s store). Mr. Fox cares, but I never got the impression that he was all that powerful—just an upper management suit that wanted to maintain a certain amount of control over his business territory.</p>
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<p>I couldn’t find any indication that she had the slightest clue that she might be pregnant–which is sort of odd, considering her total focus on fertility during all the weeks prior. The average woman worries about the consequences of unprotected sex…A woman who has been eating the bark of the Martins should have had pregnancy foremost in her mind!</p>
<p>By the way, as uncomfortable as Marina’s liaison with Anders and presumed pregnancy makes us feel, I think it’s a brilliant move from a literary perspective. Look how much we’ve discussed it, and all the ways it might impact the characters. A “cleaner” ending wouldn’t leave that lingering, unsettled feeling…and I think that’s what Patchett was going for.</p>
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<p>We speculated that the Hummocca were actually good people who were just very protective of their privacy, not murderers and cannibals—a falsehood possibly encouraged by Dr. Swenson. For the long version, see posts #66 and #99. ;)</p>
<p>^^^LOL and thanks, Mary13 – as I said, too lazy to go back to look. But, I will do so now.</p>
<p>I see your point about comparative amounts of money – guess I’m only basing my thinking on my time in the corporate world where every dime had to be accounted for – at least by those of us not as far up the food chain! And, I guess Mr. Fox may have had his self-interest at heart – if the drug came to the market on his watch, what a career boost for him.</p>
<p>BUandBC82- If Marina wasn’t pregnant, she would probably go back to the Amazon to continue Dr. Swenson’s work. That is where I thought the book was heading…until the end.</p>
<p>I agree. I also, thought Marina would return to the jungle, and still do,fulfilling Dr Swenson’s prediction that she will no longer be able to conform to her old life.</p>
<p>It’s VERY interesting to me that ** BUandBC and Ignatius**, and probably many lurkers, would prefer Marina not be pregnant. </p>
<p>[b[Mary13, ** wrote:
** But Marina did prove her devotion—she underwent a difficult journey to find Anders and unhesitatingly risked her life for him—so perhaps the reward from the gods for this devotion is the child that she will bear. It’s just bittersweet that in order for her to have this gift, other people will suffer.**</p>
<p>For me, Marina’s pregnancy is a gift, something this sad, lonely character wanted desperately. As Mary13, states perhaps other people will suffer, but I’m a reader more vested in the happiness of Marina, our protagonist. </p>
<p>Remember it was Karen, who sent "childless’ Marina in her place on a life threatening journey, while she safely tended the nest at home. </p>
<p>And, perhaps Anders should have reconsidered going on such a dangerous journey, putting himself at risk, and his family’s happiness, so he could go on quest to see exotic birds? Somewhat selfish ?</p>
<p>Perhaps Marina miscarries, or worse has a deformed child, isn’t she is a guinea pig like Swenson? Yes, she is younger, but she isn’t an indigenous woman who consumed the drug since menses. So the future may not be so bright, and as a scientist something she would worry about ?</p>
<p>I fall into the camp, who sees the pregnancy as a “gift”, tying into the theme of fertility, for a character who paid a big price for that gift.
And, as Mary13 states- certainly made this a great book for discussion!!!</p>
<p>^ a very fertile discussion! :)</p>
<p>I have found this discussion extremely interesting and illuminating. I read the book very quickly, which tended to exacerbate the disconcertingly rapid succession of plot elements toward the end. (This also serves as a convenient excuse for things I have missed.)</p>
<p>I became hung up toward the beginning of the book, with the scene where Marina is told to “wait for the attending” rather than performing an emergency C-section. Marina wound up saving the life of the mother and son (in my view), but because of her surgical error, blinded the son in one eye during the delivery. Following the sequence of Dr. Swenson’s travels, in terms of the days that she was typically away from the hospital/university, it seems to me that during all the time that Marina was being told to “wait for the attending,” the attending physician was off in the Amazon rain forest, with Dr. Rapp, and could not possibly arrive. (This would have extended from the beginning of the day Friday, until Monday.) </p>
<p>I expected some acknowledgment of this situation–for which Dr. Swenson was certainly responsible, and probably culpable–beyond the fact that Dr. Swenson stated that she recognized Marina after a while.</p>
<p>If there was no other experienced surgeon, who could have filled in for Dr. Swenson, then why did Dr. Swenson leave? (I guess the possibility of calling in a different “attending” was mentioned in the context of Marina’s original decision–but I am not sure about the normal protocol for this.) Furthermore, who at the university signed <em>that</em> Travel-in-Support-of-Research form?</p>
<p>For some reason, the agony of uncertainty for Marina, about whether to deliver the baby or not (while she was still planning to become a physician), really resonated with me. I think she made the right call. There seems to be an underlying theme of doing something that is right, while (perhaps inevitably) making mistakes in carrying it out.</p>
<p>Also, this was an event that shifted the direction of Marina’s life very substantially. Do you think that Dr. Swenson’s recognition of Marina’s capabilities, in choosing Marina to deliver her baby, could have any real impact on Marina at that point? The implicit message from Dr. Swenson, “Oh, well. Lots of obstetricians make mistakes. You could certainly have gone on if you had wanted to,” struck me as really awful in its callousness. I suppose the same could be said of Dr. Swenson, generally.</p>
<p>A few more comments, but I will put them in another post, since this one is becoming long.</p>
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<p>What do you guys think, if Marina understands the power of the Martins and understands the female reproductive system, did she purposefully sleep with Anders?</p>
<p>QuantMech - You’re posing some good questions, but I need my book and I don’t have it with me. Swenson is not a very likeable person. Callous is a good word to describe her. She is not worthy of the worship Marina has for her.</p>
<p>I realize we don’t really know what will happen next in the story, but I don’t want Marina to go back to the Amazon to finish Dr. Swenson’s work. I want her to find her own voice.</p>
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<p>I agree but did find the last chapter hurried. </p>
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<p>I agree though still prefer Marina not to be pregnant … by Anders. I do think she caught Anders at a bad time and that he has nothing but regret. </p>
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<p>Maybe, maybe not. I caught the pregnancy only because I first listened to the audio book and then read it. On that second go-round, when Nancy Saturn mentions that the bark repulses women from the time of conception, it hit me. I flipped to the last chapter, knowing exactly what to look for and where. That “brilliant move from a literary perspective” will go unnoticed by most readers. </p>
<p>Alternate endings just for SJCM 
(Don’t take me too seriously.): </p>
<p>Leave Anders alone. Have sex with Mr. Fox for the last time ever. Get pregnant. Threaten lawsuit (grounds for a humdinger of a lawsuit here). Settle lawsuit quietly. Have child with Anders and Karen as godparents. Be content.</p>
<p>or</p>
<p>Leave Anders alone. Have fling with Milton. Continue work at both company headquarters and in the Amazon. Continue fling with Milton. Fertility ensured by the bark. Desire for child to be examined later.</p>
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<p>Truthfully, much about the Martins remains unknown. Marina and the other doctors note a possible addictive quality, a revulsion to the bark after conception … but bottom line, the Martins remain an unknown entity. So, okay, women can remain fertile thanks to the Martins. Yet do the Martins somehow move “can” a step further. Maybe something in the “drug” makes the desire for pregnancy intensify. In other words, Marina purposely encourages Anders while under the influence of the Martins. (Yeah, yeah, blame it on drugs.) Still, after visiting the Martins:</p>
<p>Marina with Milton
</p>
<p>Marina with Mr. Fox
</p>
<p>Marina with Anders
</p>
<p>Marina trained in obstetrics yet that night seems blissfully unaware that actions can have consequences. Maybe I want to place some of the discredit on the Martins because I was clearly led to believe: “Marina was not the kind of woman who fell in love with another woman’s husband, any more than she was the kind of worman who would break into the house at night and steal the grandmother’s engagement ring, the laptop, the child.” (p. 9) Yet that night she does, doesn’t she - even the child, in a way.</p>
<p>Ignatius- you made me laugh ^ with your alternate endings two posts above.
QuantMech-great questions, about such a pivotal event in Marina’s life.
Dr Swenson, callous you say. She’s a female Dr House, as Mary13 mentioned previously, so her comment to “move on” didn’t seem out of character, plus didn’t she need to instill confidence in Marina to do her c- section?
I always thought Dr Swenson knew more about Marina, then she let on, but don’t have evidence of this.</p>
<p>And, just want to say to ** Mary13**, your analysis of Orfeo and Eurydice, and how it might be the foreshadowing of Marina’s pregnancy, is amazing.
Thank you, it fills in the puzzle pieces for me. </p>
<p>I read wiki about Orpheus (didn’t know the myth), then read about the Opera, and then Shakespeare’s rendition of the myth, and it wasn’t clicking for me. </p>
<p>But, the “altered” version with “altered ending” is something you picked up on!! Great, GREAT. GREAT!</p>
<p>We know that Patchett is an avid opera fan, certainly that was significant moment in the story! </p>
<p>So, back to discussion,and Quant Mech, looking forward to your posts and views. (and others, too- where is Bookiemom?)</p>
<p>Ignatius- so ya’ want to blame her actions on the Martins. Sure, ok. </p>
<p>How about blaming Dr Swenson? If she hadn’t removed her cot, then she wouldn’t have had to be in bed with Anders?</p>
<p>You bring up good point about the story. I, too, thought Marina’s motives were
more “pure”, and it wasn’t until a conversation with Barbara Bovender, that she even realized she “loved” Anders? I 'm not sure now.</p>