Stay away from Liberal Arts colleges for computer science?

@Luska19, I think (echoing a colloquy upstream) that this is ultimately a question of personal taste. I think it’s pretty clear that the market is such that someone can get a job right out of college in computer science regardless of where they received their degree. With that off the table, the choice becomes one of fit and academic passion. Some people prefer LACs specifically because they like the idea of having their work graded by actual professors who are experts in their field before settling on a major. Others walk in already prepared to dive into something they have a passionate interest in. For those people, there will always be a trade-off between the small scale, the mentoring and intimacy of a LAC and the numerous academic peak experiences available at bigger schools. Brown, Dartmouth, Princeton have certainly positioned themselves to be “happy mediums”. I might add Tufts to the mix. I’d even suggest my own alma mater, Wesleyan as an example of a LAC with graduate level courses in CS, Math, Physics and Astronomy. Amherst is in a consortium that includes a state flagship university. There are all sorts of ways of approaching the trade-offs.

@circuitrider Understood. So bringing this full circle, since the premise of being able to get a quality CS degree/job from a top research college vs LA vs happy medium comes down to a personal choice, what then separates the big 4 from all the rest? It seems to be universally recognized that MIT, CMU, Berkeley and Stanford stand alone among all others.

I would not necessarily disagree with that assessment. Obviously, they are bigger and are probably supported by graduate level research that is expanding the level of what we know about computing and its possibilities. That’s an exciting milieu to be around. OTOH, that wasn’t the issue posed in the original subject line. There is no reason to stay away from a LAC, if that is what you want AND if its course work is fleshed out sufficiently to support a major in CS.

@circuitrider, as you noted many LAC’s are bolting math, a historical stronghold amongst LAC’s, with CS - those LAC’s that created the CS Consortium are some of the strongest; others to include in that mix would include Carleton, Harvey Mudd, Oberlin, Pomona, Swarthmore, Wesleyan.

CS Consortium:
Hamilton
Swarthmore
Williams
Grinnell
Allegheny
Vassar
Washington & Lee
Colgate
Denison
Amherst
Bowdoin

(Sources: The Liberal Arts Computer Science consortium and table provided by ucbalumnus.)

In the end you need to review the CS degree offerings and opportunities at several of these schools and see how they match your goals. Take a few minutes and research curriculum from (say) Carnegie Mellon, Harvey Mudd, and Swarthmore (I picked this one as it’s listed on both the CC Top LAC page and on the CS Consortium list, if there is a better LAC to use choose it). Then see what you find.

BTW, have you shared a specific CS area of interest? Also, have you shared your stats? Much of this discussion could be moot :slight_smile:

@Rivet2000 Yes I have

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/2002593-which-colleges-should-i-be-looking-at-p1.html

My response is colored by my experience as a parent of a student that is very focused on one thing - achieving what he felt was the very best education in artificial intelligence. He was agnostic when it came to University vs LAC. After researching AI opportunities from a broad list of schools (as well as the general education requirements) he applied to ~10 schools, all of which he felt were a great match. In the end, he chose to attend Stanford.

For him, Stanford has been a magical place – with extremely challenging and rigorous classwork, surrounded by similarly driven students from around the world in a supportive and collaborative dorm environment, with access to numerous social and technical out-of-classroom opportunities.

BTW, while he felt that Stanford was his best choice in AI from a purely technical standpoint, part of his calculus was the non-major coursework requirements. Included in his current plan are courses in government, writing, archeology, philosophy, art, and psychology. You can have it all.

Bottom line, like so many have said already, pursue what you find compelling. There’s lots of choices out there. You’ll get many opinions on CC, but in the end, the only one that matters is yours. So cast a wide net and do the detailed research that will allow you to make an informed decision on what schools to apply to. Hopefully, you’ll be able to make a choice from several acceptances.

@Rivet2000 Thanks. I’d be curious to know what LAC your son was looking at for AI since the top 25 is loaded with large universities?

http://successfulstudent.org/best-artificial-intelligence-colleges/

To be honest, the only one that he considered that has been described on this thread as a LAC would be Harvey Mudd. It is considered by most as a very strong CS option.

Out of the 25 schools listed on the link you provided, he applied to 10 and was accepted to 7.

@Rivet2000 Yes indeed from everything I’ve read they are(CS) but I have not seen them listed in top schools for AI necessarily.

^^ Agree. But, he did consider HMU and even visited. After the visit he chose not to apply. The point being that he did not discount it simply for being a “LAC”

Agree with @Rivet2000. @Luska19, until you have taken the SAT and scored in the 1500+ range or ACT in the 35+ range, many of the schools being mentioned won’t likely be realizable. Until then, maybe it’s best to keep exploring what matters to you as a CS concentration can be approached from either angle with every top-25 University or top-25 LAC being a great choice, and several other UC and CSU schools in the mix as well if you are looking for a more singular focus.

@Chembiodad , the OP seems to be driven by an offer of employment by a friend of the family that is contingent upon him graduating from a “top CS school.” That would explain why each thread starts out seemingly open-ended then slowly circles back to the same four or five RUs and whether they are indeed “the best?” An additional wrinkle is that he a recruitable DIII football prospect which would seem to rule out Stanford, and Berkeley, but, not necessarily MIT or CMU.

Just thought I’d bring everyone up to speed. :smiley:

@Chembiodad Ok thanks but while I appreciate that advice in general scoring a 35+ won’t be a problem(just being honest) and even if that doesn’t happen I’ve already been approached by quite a few for football since I fall into the highest band for Ivy and would have coach endorsements from others. Unsure at this point for D1 FBS football for full scholarship but they have shown interest.

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/2002593-which-colleges-should-i-be-looking-at-p1.html

@circuitrider Close but not quite as cut and dry as you portray. The offer from graduating from a top CS school isn’t limited to just the big 4. I am and have been open minded about the possibility of a HMU or Amherst etc…but I am still curious about what separates the big 4 from all others including RU’s. Also I have stated I would be willing to attend a Stanford(no interest in Berkeley) or Duke even if it meant not playing football. I would have to make that decision when the time comes.

Going back a bit, a BA vs BS doesn’t carry any meaning with employers. Practically, it means a few less science/math courses and more flexibility for humanities courses. It really depends on what you prefer there, but if you’re looking for a more balanced experience, a BA probably is best.

LAC’s certainly are getting better with their CS offerings, and if there are more classes than required (offered frequently enough), and the requirements are enough, it will work for most students. The problems will arise from LAC’s with too few requirements or little to no available elective choice. As said above, looking into each specific department is really required to get a full picture. @Chembiodad 's highlighted list is a good starting place for LAC’s in CS.

As you’ve said, there isn’t a clear answer from people here even in the field. Hacker News is also a big forum for tech discussions, and there is constant debate there over things in this vein. In the end, figure out what you prefer and adjust according to those preferences.

In my experience as a hiring manager in several leading tech firms I disagree while saying my experience is purely anecdotal. BTW I also checked with spouse who also agrees with me.

When times were good and there were hiring sprees I would sort through applications looking specifically for CS degrees aligned with what I was looking for from what I considered top schools. Much like making a list of colleges to apply to I would start at the “top” and work my way down. The vast majority of the resumes I reviewed were holders of BS degrees.

However, when times were lean there was more of a flight to quality so I would only consider applicants with BSCS degrees from top universities.

Why? A more consistent level of capability and therefore less risk.

Hm - anecdotally, this is actually the first time I’ve ever heard of that being a factor before and I’ve discussed this a decent amount in various places. It’s one of the few things in this area that gets a general consensus. Most BA degrees don’t usually mean less CS classes so I’d be curious if they actually were more consistent or if it was reflective of something else. A majority of CS degrees are BSCS though - my school offers both, and the difference is centered around essentially whether the other requirements are more science/math or language/humanities.

I think my point is that some hiring managers will take BS vs BA into account (either way). Some managers will also have preferences as to the school an applicant has graduated. Some managers will actively look for graduates from his/her Alma matter. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, only that is.

I knew of a manager on the EE side of a company I was at whose entire team was from Kansas schools - K State or U Kansas.

@Luska19, while aspiring to an Ivy is a fine goal, as you go forward you’ll understand that humility will be critical to one’s long term success - I can’t tell you how many Ivy Leaguers I passed over for promotions because they had none, and they went no where as a result…