While Engineering six year graduation rates are above average, it does look like Engineering six year graduation rates *within the original college/i are below average (lower than all others except Pharmacy and Exploratory Studies, although the latter students are supposed to find a major elsewhere).
Is this a particular concern at Purdue, or is it a reflection of the typical attrition away from engineering at many colleges due to the rigor of the curriculum?
@ucbalumnus - I believe it’s typical attrition. This is a couple of years old but says that 35% of STEM students change their major. Kids in general change their majors ; )
I wish there were solid number for just engineering with attrition. Maybe there are but can’t seem to find them. Kids transfer in and out of these programs. When at UIUC open house one thing 5 years ago that turned us off was the head of engineering did the " look to the left of you, now look to the right of you, 2 of you won’t be here after sophomore year" . Or something like that. No other school did this and to me that was telling enough.
The COE data proves my point:
Purdue Engineering has a 4-year grad rate of 47.9% and six year graduation rate of 68.7%. Outside of co-op which is a reasonable reason, there’s no way to spin that.
FWIW, my now sophomore daughter at Cornell is increasingly happy that she chose it for engineering.
She can’t compare the personal experience of the program to other schools, so doesn’t know which might be less of a pressure cooker. What seems to be the case to us though is that Cornell Engineering is full of very talented, very hard working students who care a lot about their academics. These don’t tend to be the partiers or kids that just want to do enough to get by. For her, it’s been a great experience because she fits right in. For kids who want the stereotypical fun college experiences of partying and Greek life, who don’t understand students that stress about exams and understanding every problem set, it might not be as good a fit. (That’s not a criticism of those students either, I personally wasn’t a partier but also wasn’t a student who was willing to put in enough effort to get an A when a B with less effort was going to pass as well)
One thing your son might want to look at with smaller schools is to make sure they have enough classes (especially electives in potential majors some like Mechanical Engineering tend to have more than ones like Chemical Engineering). Also, when looking at larger schools, he might want to see how many students are in each of the engineering fields he is considering majoring in. At Cornell, some are quite large (CS, for example) while others are quite small (Material Science, for example). By sophomore year students are taking more and more specialized courses in their major and those who stay on track tend to be among the same other students. Those with a smaller number of peers in their year are going to find it easier to bond with those classmates, it makes the school feel a little smaller.
Michigan’s system of lowering the barrier for entry for a major (relative to other large public institutions) may reduce grade stress, but in the case of a popular major (such as Computer Science), it can just end up increasing other stresses associated with access to courses as well as lowering the quality of the degree program.
Given that computer science is one of the OP’s potential interests, I would find it hard to recommend Michigan until they get their course access issues under control. Since computers are at the core of any 21st century engineering discipline, these issues have a ripple effect throughout engineering…
https://www.michigandaily.com/section/academics/eecs-department-struggles-satisfy-record-demand
However, wouldn’t there be a difference between someone who changes from aerospace engineering to mechanical engineering, versus someone who changes from aerospace engineering to a non-engineering major, from the point of the view of the Purdue stat about graduation within the engineering division?
In other words, that only about 45% of entering engineering students at Purdue graduate with engineering degrees (although another 39% graduate in a non-engineering major) seems odd, given that Purdue engineering is apparently one of the more selective-for-admissions divisions there (graduation rates overall and in “difficult” majors tend to track admissions selectivity).
Of course, the OP’s student, with a 4.0 HS GPA in hard courses, 1550 SAT, NMSF is probably much more likely to graduate (and in engineering if that is his interest) than most students who enter college as engineering or intended engineering majors, regardless of the college’s graduation rates or admission selectivity.
Again 1/3 of engineering students coop. That absolutely impacts the graduation rate.
FWIW, my D only knows one student that didn’t stick with engineering. Decided to do actuarial science instead.
The retention and grad rates seem to improve every year.
Seems like we are detailing OPs post at this point.
And I have heard nothing but good things about CS at Michigan.
Achouk, you should realize that essentially ALL traditional engineering majors are hard and that you have an excellent STEM school at Arizona State University. Engineering is certainly different from the liberal arts or business degree programs. The curriculum will not vary much from school to school. It simply that some STEM programs will have greater or different resources and assets from other schools. A distinction may be that some STEM universities attract more employers to the campus career fairs, but with COVID-19 that has changed.
All that said, if you are dead set on leaving Arizona, here are some excellent small STEM schools that attract students from around the nation.
RPI
Rochester Institute of Technology
WPI
Northwestern University
U of Rochester
U of Maryland Baltimore County
Vanderbilt U
South Dakota School of Mines & Technology
Colorado School of Mines
While ABET accreditation imposes a fairly high minimum standard on content and learning outcomes for engineering major degree programs (resulting in high rigor, although a student with 4.0 HS GPA, 1550 SAT, and NMSF is very likely to be successful), there can be significant differences in curricula across schools. For example:
Just to emphasize some of @ucbalumnus’ great points, D found huge differences in gen ed requirements between schools.
There is also great variability in schools accepting AP credits to fill graduation requirements. Usually for engineering AP credits aren’t going to help students graduate earlier because of course sequencing challenges, but it can open up a students’ schedule to more easily minor or add certifications.
@achouk While it is true that AZ has some great engineering programs at ASU and UofA, I can understand your son’s desire to look into out of state options. Our son wanted to escape the heat and experience nature in shades of green rather than brown! Best wishes in your hunt.
This is a great point and exactly why my son can have a minor and certificate with his degree.
My DS16 considered cost, size of university, # engineering grads, secondary entry to major, geographic location and intense vs collaborative feel when choosing his engineering program. He is now gainfully employed in his dream job. Not all of the 2020 engineering grads he knows (HS and college peers) were so lucky so even engineering majors may struggle a bit as the economy recovers. Also most engineering hiring is regional, per the recruiters, so going to school where he may want to stay is a good idea.
NC state has a great engineering campus but is not known for OOS scholarships. No NC schools are. They will not care at all about NMF status. My DD20 NMF now goes to school in N.C. and competed for full rides at both N.C. State and UNC Charlotte. She won neither but loves N.C. and went anyway as OOS tuition is affordable.
To add to schools already mentioned: UCincinnati has a limited number (60? 90?) of NMF full tuition scholarships, is well known for its co-op program (it had the first) and for its engineering placement upon graduation. Not top 20 but for reasons already explained above, and by other posters, don’t overpay for UG engineering.
Clemson is a great engineering program as well at a “smaller school”. No secondary entry to major and an opportunity to sample engineering majors before declaring. They may still give automatic merit for stats, though those stats have been rising.
@ucbalumnus Great post! I had my son read it too. We need to research the colleges to see how they sequence their engineering curricula as you mentioned. Since he did not attend a STEM high school he has little hands on experience with engineering. I figure the sooner he gets his hands wet the better to find out if that is his true path.
To all of the helpful people on this thread - Do you think there is any advantage to getting accepted at University of Michigan by stating that you would like to enroll starting in the summer of 2021 as opposed to the fall?
@achouk …LOL…Is that even an option? Just apply. You have the stats and the grades. Can you afford the school coming out of state would be m question? This year many, many students don’t have the stats since they could not take any tests. Many wonder if that is an advantage…of course it is. Michigan is not a test option school by history. They will look at everything this year and even more things they normally do not to do their holistic review. Each application gets looked at 3 times and why it takes so long to get your answer but I think this year will be different. It hard to look away at your gpa/Sat score. Much easier to see if your an academic fit then someone with out it. Transfer students are not being accepted very quickly compared to years past. Let them know you want to be there in the fall.
Re: Design experiences/Course Sequencing: Also look into “hands on” opportunities outside the classroom: Solar Car, Concrete Canoe, Hackathons etc. Often a larger school with great facilities can offer more opportunities. However, the larger the school, the more the responsibility lies on the student to engage. I’d say it’s a point in the long standing debate: large v. small schools.
Re: The line, “Look to your right & left…one will be gone?” It’s a dated phrase that I oddly still hear. But in certain majors, the reality is it sheds some gravity. I think of so many HS seniors who lightly state, “I’m going to med. school, I’m going into engineering…”
Re: AP credit/Dual credit - Good point. I think most colleges now have clear outlines on AP credit accepted. For dual credit, Illinois uses a site, Transferology, that outlines direct class equivalencies for students taking CC courses during H.S./Summer. Indeed, fulfilling GenEds/Intro. classes can open schedule for minors, research, part time internships, applied engineering clubs etc. Similar tool in other states?
Apologies for any redundancy here as I didn’t read all replies. I will describe my s20’s process, take home messages and more recent learnings.
First, he found this website really useful for knowing about all options.
Check out the ‘applicants’ and ‘enrolled’ menu options on the left. In one way, engineering is easier as it whittles down the options tremendously. This site shows you the various eng specialities at each school and their relative sizes.
My son has an intense practical streak and has a knack for taking the cards he’s been dealt and leveraging them well. So he did not care one lick about prestige (his parents did!). While his father and I were total suckers for all of that stuff, it didn’t influence him one bit.
That being said, he was also a high stats kid with zero patience for non-serious students (they ‘waste his time’). So the above website helped him build his initial list because he could see where else he’d fit in stats-wise. Besides being a two sport varsity athlete and a state-ranked musician, he was very un-special. No national math awards or leadership positions. He’s a follower, not a leader.
His initial list had 20 schools, and we visited them all. He never considered super elite schools (MIT, CalTech) as he knew he was not in that league.
Early advice from a hiring manager of engineers for a major defense contractor pointed him at 1) ‘tech’ schools and 2) large. We live in Ohio, so this VP dude friend of mine said ‘if he can get into OSU, he’d be insane to go anywhere else.’ The only exception, he said, was Georgia Tech (his alma mater).
Spoiler- son is currently a freshmen at OSU in pre-engineering. Chem E major is his goal and he currently absolutely loves it.
I won’t drag you through each school he examined, but here are some themes, to answer your original questions.
He also had a gigantically negative reaction to any schools he felt were ‘marketing to him.’ One very elite school had a long video in the presentation with lots of kids hugging and the word ‘community’ was mentioned 10,000 times. We left in the middle of that one. The college which emphasized OVER and OVER how they seek kids with a ‘passionate purpose’ turned him off like a light.
In contrast, three schools had a ‘this is the engineering curriculum; sorry there is only room for 2 electives, but that’s the way it is’ kind of approach. This really appealed to him the most. Cornell and UCLA rose to top 3 because of that.
He never saw a dorm, a dining hall, a fitness facility or a student center. He did check out the ice rink as he’d like to play a little hockey, but he spent all of his time in the engineering buildings and maker-space areas.
By his last visit (happened to be OSU), he had eliminated 15 or so from his list. A few came off simply because he saw no reason to go to a state flagship so similar to his own (UIUC, Purdue). Others because of violating one of his weird rules (too much BS in the marketing messages). We were moderately panicked at that point since OSU was the only school anywhere near the realm of being a safety. Fortunately, his visit to OSU (again, deep inspection of facilities, near FBI check of the faculty and a solid engineering presentation), he came home and announced he was going to OSU. He applied EA (to only OSU, and was accepted in the first round, thanks goodness).
So far, so good. His focus right now is ensuring he gets into his major of choice; usually it is done at the end of the first full year. He just loves his fundamentals of engineering class although it has caused a bit of a dilemma in that he has had his head turned a bit by electrical engineering. Good problem to have.
While we were prepared to be full pay at an expensive private (he’s our youngest), our son was very, very against that. Not so much because of not wanting to pay for an elite name, but come to eventually learn, because of the added pressure it would have added to him to ‘love it.’ He is a head-down, leave-me-alone to study, serious kid. He didn’t want to add the thought that his parents are paying $75k for him to be there to the pressure he knew he would put on himself. He elected to stay home and do all remote classes this semester and one of his reasons was he felt living in a dorm doing almost all remote classes was stupid. Seems like almost every other kid in the country did not agree with him.
His story is likely different than a lot of kids described here. He is odd, we confess, and his physical appearance (big, strong male athlete who barely speaks) results in many who don’t know him well reacting with surprise upon hearing his plans (you…YOU, want to be a Chem E major? Weren’t you on the hockey team?). He is accustomed to being different than expectations. He knows precisely what he wants. Nothing we said really even gave him pause.
Very helpful @cypresspat I’ve also had the kiddo read some of these posts. I don’t get much of a reaction, but I think some of the advice is sinking in. Being in Texas, I agree that out of state big flagships similar to the ones we have just don’t make sense.