<p>Also, once a girl is victimized, she tends to stay around the edges. The edges aren’t always safe around these guys.</p>
<p>I always told my girls, if you feel like you aren’t in the middle of things at one of those parties? Get home.</p>
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<p>I was trying to bring this up early on in the thread. The ruffie issue is big. She also exhibits the behavior of someone ruffied. The paralysis.</p>
<p>My experience was that I was left alone at parties, because I was with my friends and I didn’t leave them, where I was attacked was when I was walking home from school, waiting to be picked up in a quiet area- it was when I was by myself I was vulnerable, not when there were witnesses.</p>
<p>Could be why I wanted to move to the city- more people around.</p>
<p>How hard or easy is it to get rufie or similar drugs?</p>
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<p>exactly. I’m so sorry EK. I’m also so glad you grew up to make it. A lot of girls don’t.</p>
<p>Do you lead any survivor groups?</p>
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<p>Depends on who you are.</p>
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<p>So it sounds like you feel this could help lower the odds of something bad happening and you don’t want something bad to happen to your girls. If for some reason they weren’t at the center and somebody perpetrated a crime against them <em>that wouldn’t mean they’re to blame</em>, but it also doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try to pass on some advice if you in your heart of hearts believe it could help them avoid danger, right?</p>
<p>I hope you’ll give other mommies the same benefit of the doubt, Poetgrl. Mommies might not want to focus on perps because what they want is to focus on their babies and <em>how they can take care of them</em>. Doesn’t mean it will always work, but it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try either.</p>
<p>No, but that is an interesting idea to help other teen girls.
I think I will run it by my therapist.</p>
<p>When I returned for my 35th high school reunion a couple years ago( first one I attended)I also saw the woman who had been one of my best friends in high school, and I saw what could have happened to me.
Even though she had parents who were fairly successful financially, and paid for her to attend college and bought her a condo and later a house- to me, she was a mess.
She seemed to still have a drinking problem ( she did after high school), she had a daughter the same age as my youngest who was struggling and she didn’t have any contact with the father describing him as a druggie loser.
At the reunion she was drinking quite a bit and fawning over younger men in the other section of the restaurant.
If we had a better relationship in our teens I would have tried to help her, but actually back then I was really more like her " sidekick" that she dumped on when convenient, so I didn’t feel much compassion for her unfortunately, just pity.</p>
<p>H and have always applauded our kids choices to attend (or avoid) situations, parties, events at any time these chose not to participate. We have always free ride home, no Qs asked. Both would rather enjoy a quiet time at home or a friends over an event that makes them in any way uncomfortable. </p>
<p>I recall my parents were always dismayed that I chose quiet time at home over going out. Am happy we do NOT pressure kids about their social choices in the same way.</p>
<p>It is interesting to see how classmates “turned out.” Sometimes not as expected. I much prefer H’s reunions because the folks are much more inclusive. My reunions are more cliquish and the folks I knew don’t bother to attend.</p>
<p>Just as an aside, I don’t have a strong opinion one way or the other about the advice you gave your daughter, Poetgrl. I hadn’t thought about that. One thing I would think of is to be wary of entering a bedroom by yourself when you’re at a party. </p>
<p>If those of you with more experience think it’s wiser to focus more on the perps and want to steer the conversation back in that direction, no problem. Not trying to keep it just focused on the other end of how to combat things. And definitely not wanting to judge women who’ve had horrendous crimes perpetrated against them!</p>
<p>I find it interesting that posters are complimenting Sean’s parents, implying you credit them with having had some part in teaching him to respect women and to stand up against wrongdoing. But posters harshly criticized me upthread for saying parents need to be more responsible about addressing their children’s behavior, and more vigilant about not allowing them to attend parties with underage drinking. Most of you also seemed uncomfortable with the idea there could be any mitigating factors in a rapist’s behavior. He’s an animal and he alone bears full responsibility.</p>
<p>So when kids behave honorably, you accept that there’s some relationship between upbringing and that behavior. But when kids behave dishonorably, there’s no such relationship? Phew, how convenient for all parents everywhere!</p>
<p>I never said we shouldn’t focus on dealing with rapists, by the way. What I said is that criminals, by definition, don’t tend to be law-abiding people of good conscience, so controlling what they do is not an easy thing to accomplish.</p>
<p>Well, I’m the one who mentioned him, and I am NOT someone who denies the relationship between upbringing and cultural influences and subsequent behavior.</p>
<p>^ Agreed, you’ve been supportive of that viewpoint and I appreciate your input.</p>
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<p>GFG, you wrote this in this thread. You really can’t see a difference between this and advising girls to be cautious? You are clearly blaming the victim. I bolded that part in case it isn’t clear.</p>
<p>I, for one, do not want to go over that ground again. :(</p>
<p>EK-- I really think you have a lot to teach and give. I appreciate your contributions on this thread, for one.</p>
<p>DeborahT, I’m not really sure why you keep focusing on me or on my comments. I will say that I have received quite a bit of back channel PMs, from mothers AND from students thanking me for my perspective. </p>
<p>If you want to contribute to the thread, feel free. But, please stop addressing me directly.</p>
<p>Yes, electronblue, that is exactly what I found offensive early on in the thread and it certainly colored my response. I will say, finally, on this subject, if anybody here has any actual interest in why it is so important, now, to focus on the actions of the criminals while also teaching our daughters to stay safe, please go back and read the Time article about victim recovery linked by Himom last night.</p>
<p>It is informative and gives a perspective as to why it is so important that we start to look at other perspectives. The truth is, in the absence of the criminals, there ARE no victims. Nothing is more important to remember than that.</p>
<p>I thought the current topic was the relationship between a child’s upbringing and his behavior. I guess you really have no interest in actually listening to what I’m saying–attacking me is more important to you. Again, there’s a difference between blaming the victim for poor decisions that rendered her vulnerable to danger and crime, and blaming her for the actions of the rapist.</p>
<p>Neither do I. We all want the same thing–for girls and women to be treated with respect and not to have to fear being objectified or victimized by boys or men. Let’s work on ways to achieve that.</p>
<p>Poetgrl, okay. I was hoping to make peace with you, maybe come to some kind of mutual understanding. Perhaps my hopes were too high. </p>
<p>Take care (meant kindly, as in wishing you well).</p>
<p>Speaking of the sexual objectification of women and cultural factors, does anyone have any idea why the “cougar” phenomenon has become so popular?</p>
<p>Deborah, I know what you are saying vis-a-vis our girls learning to stay safe. It just wasn’t what interested me on this thread, and it still isn’t, though I don’t think it is unimportant. You have mistaken some of my posts about somebody else’s posts to be to you. They simply weren’t. I don’t have any ill feelings towards you or anybody posting on here, I simply don’t think the most interesting thing to discuss about this is what our girls can do. I think, at this point, and most of the experts agree, that we need to start to focus on rape culture and on the perpetrators and criminal punishment. The other felt like, and still, to some extent, feels like, a diversion from this important new cultural discussion. </p>
<p>The GFG— I don’t think anybody wants to attack you. However when you say:</p>
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<p>This is offensive to many of us. Me included.</p>
<p>Please read the article linked by Himom. It very clearly says why this is soooo important at this stage to many of us. </p>
<p>I’ll go try to find the article to re-link it so it is easy for you to find.</p>
<p>I wish we had more data on what we would advise our daughters, other than a bunch of truisms. I always read the one about yelling when you are about to be attacked, and I wonder when - at 50 feet, at 20 feet, or when you are in the attacker’s grip? (if it is different at different distances, can someone about to be attacked able to assess correctly? Or am I back to blaming the victim?) If an attacker is upon you, does it raise the risk of being killed? or beaten? I don’t know the answer, and I wonder what the data show. Does having a weapon in defense increase or decrease risk?</p>
<p>By all means, offer advice - that’s our job as parents. But be careful about what you advise.</p>