<p>edad - I don’t see how your D does it. She must be amazing.</p>
<p>The extra per credit costs at Oberlin rarely come into play for double degree students unless they are taking extra lessons on a secondary instrument. A minimum of 152 credit hours are needed over 10 semesters because of the way the programs are coordinated and the potential for “double dipping,” i.e allowing requirements from one program to simultaneously count as electives for the other. The music degree alone requires 124 credit hours in eight semesters for an average of 15.5 credits per semester, while double degree students need only average 15.2. In that sense, the workload is actually slightly less, plus they get an extra year to work on their instrument before auditioning for grad schools or jobs. Additionally, ensemble courses can be taken for 0 credit hours if needed to keep under the 17 credit hour per semester limit. Scholarships are renewable for five years for double degree students, so while they do hit you up for the extra year, they make it as painless as possible beyond that. In our case, the merit scholarship money will more than pay for the extra year as long as tuition increases are not outrageous. </p>
<p>About a quarter of Oberlin’s Conservatory students participate in the double degree program at some point in their careers, and more than half of those complete it. It does not necessarily slow them down musically - nearly all of the concerto competition winners there last year were fourth or fifth year double degree students who expect to complete both degrees.</p>
<p>To BassDad’s list I would add Bradley Garner & Jack Wellbaum at U of Cincinnati’s highly regarded College-Conservatory of Music (CCM) ($10K in-state, $24K out.) It’s a great deal for the musician who is also a scholar b/c UC gives full instate tuition plus R&B to National Merit finalists, and other scholarships are available through its Cincinnatus competition. Of course, first you have to be accepted at CCM!</p>
<p>BassDad: I am not sure I understand. If a music degree requires 124 credits/semester, how does the second degree require only an additional 28 credits? I don’t see much potential for “double dipping.” I can’t imagine many majors where music lessons, performance, keyboard training, ear training, music theory or history would be applicable. Perhaps a few of these credits would count for electives, but that still leaves a huge amounts of credits which would be needed for a second degree in an unrelated area.</p>
<p>Wow BassDad you sure know your flute information. Yes Daughter has taken class with Debost and loved his sense of humor, so Oberlin made the preliminary list quickly. The school in Denton with Mary Clardy is a bit on the huge side so it was put on the maybe list. Carol Wincenc we know more as a performer but coincidently we have a freind of a freind and are talking about meeting and possibly taking a lesson with her.</p>
<p>You did miss Brad Garner at Cinci again someone she has taken class with and liked. Also Eva Amsler at FSU, Tadeo at NCSA, Joshua Smith at CIM. You did list a few we are not yet familiar with and we will check out, thanks. Indiana’s flute situation is up in the air.</p>
<p>Binx, the NYC schools have great teachers, Robert Langevin is another my duaghter has had the good fortune with whom to take a class(reminds me of all the miles we and I am sure all of you have logged). The whole NYC thing and costs involved took them off the initial list, but we could revisit as they are great schools with top instructors. I see you are in Germany, interestingly enough my daughter has a chance on the academic side to travel there and would hope to mix in some flute lessons while there, but that is just a possibility and another thread.</p>
<p>Love to read more about the financial side of this and getting aid in some form from the big schools. Sounds like NEC is not a good candidate to get any relief in costs.</p>
<p>The dual enrollment information is also helpful, I have been following it in other threads, as we appear headed in that direction.</p>
<p>The talk of the profession of music and its problems is something that also disturbs us but again there are other threads for that.</p>
<p>Actually, I have to credit my wife. She is an adjunct flute instructor at a local college.</p>
<p>The basic performance degree at Oberlin requires 124 credit hours, of which 82 must be in the conservatory, 24 must be in the college and the remaining 18 can be in either. The 24 college hours are completely unrestricted except that the normal pre-requisites and co-requisites must be satisfied, and class size limitations are enforced. Therefore, it is possible to apply 42 credit hours toward the college major just from within the music curriculum.</p>
<p>The double degree requirements include 152 total credit hours (in the case of music performance and math) of which a minimum of 76 are in the Conservatory and 62 are in the College. Within that total, the standard math curriculum must be satisfied (about 40 credit hours) as well as distribution requirements in natural sciences (9 hours covered by math major courses), arts and humanities (9 hours covered by some of the music curriculum), social studies (9 hours not covered in math or music), cultural diversity (9 hours covered partially by music courses) and writing (6 hours not covered by music or math). Therefore the college portion adds 40 hours for math, 9 hours of social studies, 6 hours of cultural diversity classes and 6 hours of writing classes for a total of 61. That leaves 15 hours within the required 152 for free electives, at least one hour of which must be taken in the college.</p>
<p>We decided early in our (H.S.) senior’s musical career to be very realistic with D about the difficulties of finding employment as a professional player. Yes, she is talented, but there are many talented musicians out there! Eventually, we sent her to Interlochen Arts Academy, partly for academics she could not get at her home high school, but also so she didn’t have the experience of being big fish in a little pond, and so she wouldn’t think because of that experience that there was not much competition for professional jobs. </p>
<p>She has had a very postitive experience at Interlochen, and one that has been very helpful as she formulates career goals. She will probably be attending Oberlin next year, with a performance and physics double major, working toward graduate school probably in engineering. At the same time, she realizes that college/conservatory is an excellent opportunity for her to study music seriously, and that once school is over, it will be more difficult to find those opportunities. Music for her isn’t a fall-back, but rather she is choosing quite consciously to prepare as well as possible not only for her primary career but also for her avocation, hopefully in a local/regional symphony.</p>
<p>RainMom, welcome to CC.</p>
<p>If your daughter has any questions about Oberlin and their double degree program, send me an email or PM and I will give you contact info for my daughter. While she is currently doing performance/math at Oberlin, she has also given some thought to performance/physics.</p>
<p>How do they figure financial aid for that 5th year at Oberlin? Are you on your own for that 5th year?</p>
<p>Interlochen fortunately does not have a big reputation for flute, because the cost is beyond our means. But it must be great for the kids to get that much music exposure. We looked at NCSA and even discussed a job transfer to NC to get the in state cost. But academically NCSA does not have a strong reputation, never heard that Interlochen had much academically either. I think NEC has a HS program too but never explored it as it must be expensive.</p>
<p>Merit scholarships are renewable for all five years for double degree students at Oberlin. Not sure about need-based.</p>
<p>BassDad: thanks for the explanation. It seems that Oberlin is very accommondating to DD students. I would also guess that with minimal requirements, the graduation rate is high.</p>
<p>Hi RainMom and FluteMomLiz! My son is at Interlochen, too :). Although he’s a first yr. senior and taking minimal academic classes, they are considerably more rigorous than any of the honors or AP classes he took at our public HS and I have been quite impressed. The financial aid available at IAA is also pretty amazing, especially now that we have a chance to compare it with offers from colleges and conservatories. The sticker shock is very real!</p>
<p>Edad…that was a wonderful response…thank you so much. Your daughter does sound amazing. I’m going to discuss your post with my son! The problem with commiting only to music is that at the tender age of 17, do these kids really know what they are in for? Yes, they love music now…but once the reality of adult life sets in, are we doing them a disservice by enabling them to limit their options? I speak as a professional musician who opted for law school. My chamber orchestra just had a reunion…I was the happiest one there…and the only one who had flown the musical coop, so to speak. Your daughter is doing the right thing, even if it is more difficult!
Is it limiting her options in music since she can’t practice fourteen hours a day? Perhaps…but if she really needs to prepare for important auditions, she can take a quarter off or focus during the summer.</p>
<p>Rainmom…could you tell me more about Interlochen HS? My son was offered a scholarship to attend…but I wasn’t ready to send him off so soon (we’re in CA). </p>
<p>BassDad…good for your daughter! Is she finding it difficult to practice and do problem sets at the same time? Does she find that the profs at Oberlin (particularly the music profs) take her less seriously because she’s doing both? It’s well known math and music go hand in hand (except for some of us:)</p>
<p>FlutemomLiz…I’m new to posting all together…can you refer me to another thread…?</p>
<p>Daughter is indeed very busy, but still has time for sleep and occasional socializing. She has always been very good at time management and making every minute count. The music profs there are very used to dual degree students and do not take her less seriously. As I mentioned in a prior post, most of their recent concerto competition winners were dual degree students.</p>
<p>BassDad…D sounds amazing. Sounds as if Oberlin is a wonderful place…I’ll have to look into their trumpet program…Thank you!</p>
<p>SymphonyMom - We have found the academics at IAA to be excellent. D has been able to study AP Physics independent study this year, after having completed Calculus (5 on BC Calc test) last year - working at a level appropriate for her even though she had not taken first year physics. (She attends some first year physics lectures and labs as well.) Many teachers do independent studies with interested students. D came into her 2nd year German class way behind the 2nd year Interlochen German students, but the teacher worked with her until she caught up with the class, and she went on to really enjoy the course and to do quite well with it at a very different level from that which was available at her local high school. The academic teachers she has had are extremely dedicated, very bright and caring. Teachers come in to lead tutorials in the evenings for kids who need to catch up, want supervised study, or for enrichment. Classes are small. (D’s calc class had 7 kids. Most seem to run between 12 and 15.) I do know that there are some kids who have come from larger urban schools in wealthy areas, who have not found as many academic choices as at home. </p>
<p>For kids who take full academic load as well as full courses in their arts area, it’s a great chance to see how a double degree might work at college. Kids take 3 or 4 intense academic courses (all courses are AP or honors level) each year for a full load of academics. There is also the option, once graduation requirements are met, of taking less than a full academic load, especially for those who are going to conservatory or do not want or need courses beyond high school graduation requirements for other reasons. </p>
<p>D has been very busy, and comes home exhausted at break times, but has had not only a tremendous musical experience, but a very identifying academic experience at Interlochen. Financial aid has been very good for her over the years as well, making it possible for us to give her this opportunity.</p>
<p>FluteMomLiz…you said “Our question was if we can not afford the 40K should we just eliminate those schools now and start looking at less expensive alternatives.”</p>
<p>While I cannot respond to this from the Conservatory side, I can respond from the University side as my daughter is a freshman Voice Performance major at the University of Michigan. We do not live in the state of Michigan, so we were long forewarned that “Michigan does not give aid to out-of-staters.” Daughter had excellent grades…but not perfect SAT scores or anything. She does have a well-trained classical soprano voice. At the time she was also looking at Musical Theatre programs as well as Voice Programs and she was not interested in auditioning for the Conservatory Voice programs. During the process, while we knew we could not afford UM tuition/room/board ($36,000/year) we let daughter audition with the understanding that if she got admitted, she would have to have SUBSTANTIAL financial aid/scholarship to attend. Well, she was admitted. And we were shocked at the large scholarship/aid she has been afforded. (So much for “Michigan does not give aid to out-of-staters.”) </p>
<p>Her first year has been an extraordinary experience with nurturing faculty, exceptional musical growth, challenging coursework, and a lifetime-worth of musical concerts/experiences that have expanded her view of music in the world. (And the collegiate football experience was fun too!) </p>
<p>The moral of the story from our point of view…allow your student to try, no matter the potential cost, as long as they are aware of the financial possibilities. You never know what they might receive in aid.</p>
<p>I totally agree. You don’t know unless you apply. I was in tears at this time last year because the financial aid packages, that we had to have, were too good to be true. I will always think good of USC in this regard.</p>
<p>symphonymom:</p>
<p>Oberlin–I know the trumpet teacher at Oberlin personally (Roy Poper). He is excellent and very nuturing. He chooses his students very carefully. He has turned down very talented students because he thought they wouldn’t fit in at Oberlin. He spends a great deat of time with each person auditioning. Make sure you son auditions in person at Oberlin, not regionally or on tape.</p>
<p>Northwestern–I think they must have a good trumpet program because a 21 year-old senior was just named Associate Principal of the New York Philharmonic. They certainly have great academics.</p>