Stop Pretending You’re Not Rich

In terms of the US household income distribution, the top fifth (80th percentile) starts at around $110,000, while $200,000 is around the top 6% (94th percentile).

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/51361 (figures 11 and 13 of the PDF) indicates that the top 1% has done far better than the 81st-99th percentile over the years, but the 81st-99th percentile has also done better than those in lower income ranges over the years. Of course, the 81st-99th percentile is 19 times as numerous as the top 1%, so their aggregate incomes and gains are larger than the top 1% (figure 7 of the PDF).

Thanks for the link. So, the bottom line of the math is that whatever solution requires higher taxes, it has to include two teacher type couples in the mix, since the top one percent isn’t a strong enough tax donkey to pull the wagon with everyone else in it.

Re: lower cost housing in Los Altos, CA

There exist below market rate housing units in Los Altos, CA (for example, http://www.leaselosaltos.com/affordable-housing-information/ ). However, it is likely very difficult to find vacancies in them.

The top 1% is also much more politically influential on an individual basis than the 81st-99th percentile. So it is no surprise that types of income that make up a much greater percentage of the top 1% incomes than the 81st-99th percentile incomes are taxed at lower rates (e.g. investment income like dividends and long term capital gains).

Table 3 of the CBO report linked in #240 shows that the 96th-99th percentile gets 66% of its market income from labor, 11% from business, and 12% from capital income and gains, while the top 1% gets 38% from capital income and gains, 35% from labor, and 23% from business.

There are some interesting tables. Contrary to the anti american pinko spirit in most of these types of articles that asserts the rich and upper classes are getting some kind of free ride, Figure 2 is showing me that the top quintile and top 1% are paying about the same average tax rate that they paid in 1979 before the big bad Ronald Reagan wrecked the country, but the lower four quintiles are paying dramatically less than they were then. I’m puzzled by this, but there it is from the bipartisan authority.

@mom2and You are painting the states with a broad brush. May work better with smaller states which will have more homogeneous education systems. But it doesn’t work well for many states which do not. There are excellent school districts in states which on the whole appear average. And from everything that I have seen personally in different school districts, money spent is just one factor (and not the most significant).

@ucbalumnus Reeves is selectively reporting the data to push the agenda he supports (higher taxes on top 20%). As you note, most of the income gains in top 20% went to 1-19% but there are a lot more people in that group than the top 1%. Its like reporting that the cost of the Bush tax cuts for the “non-rich” was something like 3 times what it was for the “rich.” Its true but doesn’t tell the entire story because there are so many fewer “rich” such that the average tax was significantly higher for the rich.

@dadx Effective tax rate is what matters rather than marginal rates. There are a lot of people who long for days of 70% or 90% top tax rates. But there were a plethora of tax shelters such that no one really paid those rates. Those tax shelters were largely eliminated in the early 1980s. People who understand taxes understand that but often if they are for increasing taxes by a lot on the “rich” they will tend to ignore it (Paul Krugman comes to mind).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/04/as-the-rich-become-super-rich-they-pay-lower-taxes-for-real/?utm_term=.51d3699a4e50

One of the problems with the 'top 1%" discussion is that it starts at a very non rich state, 220k year is not wealthy, it is comfortably upper middle class…and reading the discussion above, it looks like those who are in the top .1 and above pay less than those who are in the rest of that 1%. It looks great on paper, chortling how the top1% pay 23%, but what that leaves out is people in the bottom end of that top 1% could be paying close to 30%, and those at the tippy top be paying only 18%. …and there is a reason f or that, people in the bottom of the top 1% get most of their income from W2 income, which is where federal taxes hit hardest, those in that top .1 and above get most of their money from capital gains, which since they can afford to hold it, is only 15% (there is also a ridiculous loophole that allows hedge fund managers to pay 15% on their income from the fund). There are also deductions, like the ones apparently the President has used on his various interests, where he can end up paying zero taxes.

Corporations, despite the claims, also these days pay a lot less to the federal government, in part because of loopholes, in part because of holding profits overseas in low tax countries, in the 1950’s corporations paid about a third of all federal taxes, today it is somewhere around 15%), so there is a significant loss of tax revenue, big corporations hve huge tax departments that do nothing but figure out how to shield profits from taxes.

And no, no one in the top end paid 90%, or whatnot, there were 24 brackets in the 1950’s…but there is a cautionary tale to be had here, comparing the past and present is difficult, because the rules have changed. For example, when the AMT was put in place it hit only a relatively small percentage of the uber rich, today people in the top 5% face it in large numbers if they live in areas where they have significant deductions (high tax states, mortgage interest, property taxes), they never indexed the amt amounts from 1968 in any kind of real way, so it soaks a lot of middle ot upper middle income people, likewise the top 1% starts at like 220k, but if you look at the 1950’s, the top 1% started in the couple of millions of dollar a year range (I assume in 2017 dollars), in many ways it is like comparing the cost of a tv today to one in 1950 and not adjusting for the technology and inflation (a couple of hundred bucks in the 1950’s for a tv was very expensive, to say the least, for that same 200 dollars in 2017 dollars you get something they couldn’t even dream of). It is like that with taxes, and throwing around percentages and the like is fraught with all kinds of statistical mumbo jumbo.

It also leaves off, not surprisingly, the plethora of federal taxes mere mortals pay that are regressive, the excise taxes, and worse, the payroll taxes, and that adds to the percent in federal taxes. SS is the classic example, for many people it is 7.5% of their income (or whatever the current rate is, they keep changing it), along with matching from their employer…for the CEO of a company, they pay off that bill on noon of january 1st,a tiny fraction of 1%, same with medicare, because of the limits. The argument the rich make is that doesn’t matter, because they can’t collect more than X from SS…which if it were a trust fund, would be correct, but SS is not, it is part of the federal budget, and with surpluses the federal government was using it in direct payments to balance the budget, along with borrowing, and it therefore is basically direct tax revenue that is regressive taxation that hits the lower classes, hard, which those defending the well off of course rationalize away and play lawyer tricks…because the treasure notes they put in place of the SS revenue, have interest that needs to be paid off…and that is part of the burgeoning debt we have, which will crowd out other federal benefits people might have gotten.

As far as the reagan tax cuts go, the proof is in the puddling, with the same levels of federal spending as before he took office, after the 1986 tax cuts the deficit soared, it was 50billion when carter left office, it was several hundred billion a year after 1986 (among other things, blows the whole idea of tax cuts paying for themselves, they didn’t and never have, pure and simple). What that means is the government was getting less revenue, and given that even conservatives agree that the biggest beneficiaries were the well off and corporations, it means that t hey were paying much less, pure and simple.

Another thing an article mentioned, back in the 1950’s most companies filed as incorporated companies, paying corporate rates. A lot of businesses when the tax code created S corporations and LLC’s changed to them, those kinds of businesses have the protections of personal assets a partnership does not, but allows the principals to file any earnings under the individual rates…and this exploded after 1986, in large part because personal rates were cut so much, which in turn cut down the very well offs tax bill.

The real thing about taxes is you have to look at all taxes people pay, and for that, the lower percentages of people pay a lot more than they ever did, payroll taxes, income taxes, all those taxes on phone service and internet service and tires and who the hell knows what, sales taxes, local taxes, property taxes, all add up and hit the lower percentiles much harder, part of the burden that happened was that states and localities lost federal support and tax revenue, and hit people through local ones.

And this isn’t pinko, it is about tax fairness, and one of the biggest ones was the capital gains tax rates, every bit of economics data has shown that cutting the capital gains tax rate does not lead to increased capital formation that builds jobs or increases GDP, in the word on Business insider magazine, it tends to create bubbles of exotic wealth spending on luxury items…that alone won’t balance the budget, the reality is that the very well off, along with the rest of us, need ot rationalize what we are spending, what we are spending it on, and balance it out. Slashing spending the way the tea party wants to do it will cause the economy to crash, the way some of the things ole Bernie proposed likely would IMO,and we need to look at federal spending and ask does this do what it is supposed to, especially in defense spending, or is it political pork to create in effect make work jobs for things that don’t really work…but I am not holding my breath.

And please, stop the idiotic crap like calling people un american, pinko, that jerk McCarthy drunk himself to death nearly 60 years ago and we don’t need that, any more than we need the idiotic “liberal” as an epithet, or the idea that somehow that there are political ideas that are manna from heaven, set in stone, ‘the truth’, or that compromise is a dirty word, if socialism doesn’t work (and I don’t think it does, pure anything doesn’t work, capitalism or socialism), or other things don’t work, then come up with new ideas and debate them (for example, you may think socialism sucks, but ask an old person on SS or Medicare what they think of it, or the people in Mitch McConnel’s district with the jobs at the auto plants, or the southern pine industry, or Boeing in the pacific northwest, or the people in rural areas who have electricity, phone service and the internet because of ‘socialist’ programs)…

@mom2and

Idaho does not rank near the bottom for K-12 educational quality. It performs about the same as the national average in NAEP math and above the national average in NAEP reading. I wouldn’t consider Oklahoma near the bottom either. It has bad math scores, but its reading scores are average.

Rankings are never perfect, especially in the broad middle. However, the “top” states in broad terms (even judging by the scores needed for National Merit SF status) tend to be the most pricey. For class of 2017, the cutoff in Idaho was214 while in NJ and Mass it was 222. The lowest qualifying score was 209. Didn’t mean to diss the education in any particular state, but simply point out that there are real COL differences.

Of course within any state there are pockets of very good schools and very bad ones. However, I believe the general point is that the states with the highest COL are those with the better schools. In those states, living in an average suburban town will likely provide a quality education. However, there are some excellent districts and some that are not very good.

By the way, the affordable housing limits listed for Los Altos in the link above shows that the median income in Santa Clara County is $95,500 for a family of 3 and $111,600 for a family of four. In sharp contrast, the affordable housing limits show that the median income in Boise Idaho is $64,300 for a family of 4. A family income of $200K is 179% of the median in Los Altos and 311% of the median in Boise.

You can keep repeating something but it doesn’t make it true.

OK, but what evidence do you have to the contrary? The results of college readiness, standardized testing and other metrics put some states ahead of others in terms of the quality of K-12 education. Are you saying there is no difference in the education system among states or that people living in more expensive areas do not, as a general rule, have better schools? What is your point?

http://247wallst.com/special-report/2014/01/14/states-with-the-best-and-worst-schools-2/5/

You keep painting with a broad brush as if school systems in states are some monolithic entity which they aren’t.

@sailakeerie:
The numbers they are using are medians, across the state, and represent a statistical average. Even a state like Arkansas, that is typically near the bottom of the barrel when it comes to educational achievement, has areas that do much better, median scores because they are weighted by the numbers at all levels, show relative achievement. A kid in a well off Little Rock Suburb may score as well as a kid in a well off suburb of NJ, but he/she could be much more of an outlier compared to the rest of the state then in a high achieving state, and that is what these numbers show, how the state as a whole fares. If a state has a couple of really crappy districts (take NJ, with Patterson, Passaic, Newark and Camden), if the median scores are near the top of the barrel in the country, then that means those are outliers, whereas if a state is near the bottom of the barrel, it means they have a lot more low achieving districts than high.

The other thing with school spending is it also depends on what they pay teachers as well. Some relatively low cost schools that do well also are located in areas where it is a lot cheaper to live, in suburban Long Island school districts pay well over 100k for experienced teachers, in a rural area a teacher to have the same quality of life might only need let’s say 50k a year. I suspect if you factored out teacher salaries in the low cost districts that do well, you would find they still spend relatively near the same thing as non teacher salaries in high cost districts.

The real problem with the low cost districts is they pay teacher salaries that are so low they aren’t very wanted jobs and it is hard to fill the positions they need. Time and again, the biggest factor in educational success, above things like facilities and such, are good teachers. I mentioned in another post about NYC in the 30’s and 40’s, and how it had an education system that was the marvel of the world. The reason was they had high quality teachers in a lot of cases, people who otherwise would teach at a college level or work professionally went to work as teachers, because it was a paycheck in a bad time). My mom went to a high school in what today would be called the South Bronx, and the math department had of the 5 teachers, 3 PHd’s in math, the rest had masters, and that was not uncommon.

This also explains why throwing money at bad districts doesn’t always work to improve things, among other things those districts can be hard to get good teachers to go there, when they can make as much money for example in a suburban district as they would in let’s say Newark or Paterson in NJ, without the hassles, and some bad school districts increased spending often goes to administrators of things like special ed and the like, rather than teacher’s salaries. Money alone doesn’t solve problems, but lack of money to pay for teachers and facilities when measured against cost of living and the like, is a recipe for bad schools. Put it this way, if rural districts had great school systems turning out well educated employees, companies would locate in those areas, it is why areas known for high tech companies are what they are, they have the educational base (in their case research universities and the like), and a lot of that is a tradition of not spending money on the schools.Boise, Idaho is a city, albeit a small one, what is the education level like in their rural farm counties?

Let’s remember that correlation does not equal causation. It wouldn’t be surprising if scores are higher in states where spending is highest. School spending is highest where local tax revenues are highest. Tax revenues are highest where people have above average incomes. For many reasons wealth is correlated with higher scores.

@sue22:
Obviously, when you are dealing with a predominantly upper middle income to well off district (like let’s say Scarsdale, NY), then you are dealing with kids from families who have college educations, who can provide resources outside the school and the like. However, studies have looked at the correlation between school spending and educational attainment, and when you factor out things like relative cost of living (ie buildings in Des Moines, idaho that has decent schools, and teacher salaries, are less than suburban NJ), what they find time and again is that spending itself is important, pure and simple, and that factoring out other things, that schools that spend relatively little per pupil on this basis don’t do well, they can’t hire the teachers or have the facilities to help their kids achieve. It is one of the biggest failing of our schools, that the quality of our schools depends on the local tax base which in turn depends on who your parents are, the whole model of paying for schools is broken and the current band aid approach to bringing spending up is subject to all kinds of issues, political fighting and the like, problem is, those in well off districts with great schools will fight this tooth and nail because they know they have an advantage.

@mom2and

MA and NH have excellent schools and are high, but not top spenders on public education. Beyond that, the relation is much more ambiguous than you’re letting on. On 8th grade reading NAEP at the basic or higher level, Montana is 4th, Nebraska is 6th, followed by Minnesota, Maine, and Idaho. In math at the basic or higher, Minnesota is 2nd, North Dakota is 4th, and Montana is 6th.