Interestingly, I was looking at a job in another area of the country, and the pay was 50% less that of the same job in my area near NYC. Interesting because that 50% is mostly the increased cost of living near here, yet that person would be considered to have 50% less money than I would earn here near NYC, yet we actually would have about the same available if we lived in the same house and fed and clothed our families the same way.
Don’t be surprised. Class warfare of all types is one of my pet peeves, and I can always get suckered into a conversation about it. Pitting groups of people against each other, it aggravates me.
As long as people don’t pull up the ladder after their rise, I’m happy. And sometimes you need to reach down and pull someone up a rung…
Amen to that, @HRSMom
@busdriver11 While I agree class warfare can be divisive, I also believe that pretending that there ISN’T a chasm between the ruling class and everyone else is like sticking your head in the sand. It needs to be discussed and addressed unless we want to be just one giant third-world nation…
^^Sure, nothing wrong with talking about things. But labeling people as the ruling class because they fall into a certain income category at one time in their life is silly. If anything, the top 20% of income earners (who pay the vast majority of taxes), are nothing but tax donkeys. All of the load, and none of the power.
Talk in the abstract is great. When folks don’t like the opinions and information presented, sometimes they can be quite nasty and even violent! I think most will agree that there is quite a chasm between the rich (however it’s defined) and folks who aren’t sure where their next meal is coming from, for example. Between those extremes and who is included in these extremes can and is debated.
Many on this forum have expressed dismay at proposed plans that could drop 23 million or more from medically insured to uninsured. Blaming people for having assets doesn’t seem productive to me.
Busdriver: I was responding to this in your post #51:
[quote]
Being aware of the fortunate opportunities in your life is a given for most people, in every income category. [\quote].
As well as to the notion in that same post that people dismiss as luck the level of skill and learning required to become a neurosurgeon. I have never heard or read that sentiment.
“Blaming people for having assets doesn’t seem productive to me.” Productive or logical.
Okay, mom2and. Perhaps it’s an incorrect assumption, but I do think most people are aware of their circumstances, of their advantages and their struggles that they have dealt with throughout their lives.
I have definitely heard people say that everything is luck, privilege and opportunity. I believe in self determination, no matter where you start from or what you have to deal with along the way. Even if it isn’t realistic, the psychological boost you get can go a long way.
I think the private school issue is much more complicated than class. For us -we had a kid that was unhappy at school -so we tried a different school. I am not saying that class wasn’t a part of why she was happier at private -but it wasn’t our motivation.
Around here -religion is a HUGE part of private school. We have many, many religious private schools.
I have not found that, busdriver, as many people born into well off families seem to believe they are more deserving than others. They seem to value their hard work more than the hard work of others who due to circumstances of birth or education do not achieve to the same degree. Of course many are thankful and aware of their good fortune, but not a given.
OTOH, of course, there are those that perpetually have a chip on their shoulder or who squander opportunities handed to them to improve their circumstances and believe they are unlucky and those that worked hard to get out are just luckier.
The point of the article to me (beyond the unnecessary guilt trip) was for those with means to accept that they are more privileged than they may believe they are, even if they don’t feel rich.
A number on a tax return doesn’t indicate whether a person is privileged or not. It’s just a number on a tax return.
And then do what with that? That’s the part I didn’t get. The point of the article was just to get people to have the good grace to feel guilty?
I work in Big Law with the absolutely most privileged people you can imagine. Almost all of them know it, never forget it, and do a lot for the greater good. Some privileged people know it and act accordingly. They are such talented, smart, connected people, that they really make a difference.
I didn’t read it that way. By citing british upper class feeling guilty, I thought the author meant having some humility. With humility comes recognition of the responsibility better-to-do may bear for the good of general public. Not because they owe it. Just a way of return to the society that was good for them, a desire to keep it healthy and prosperous and doing what they can. Do we not agree that’s not the prevalent more of present day upper class? Our upper class seem quite good at identifying their “miseries” and ways to mend it. What it may do to general public is certainly not on top of their mind.
No, we don’t agree.
Or rather, there are and have always been selfish people at all economic levels, and there are and have always been kind and generous people at all economic levels.
Life is complicated. There typically are no silver bullets in terms of fixes to issues. And typically you can’t paint with broad strokes in terms of large groups of people. Doesn’t mean people don’t try to do both. Often.
The attitude I’ve seen is more like “I worked my butt off and did X, Y, and Z to get where I am. Nothing is preventing that poor person from doing the same thing I did.”
No guilt here. I know where I came from, what was sacrificed for me and what I sacrificed to educate my children. II had a few thousand dollars and turned into a multi million dollar company, someone else may have spent it and been broke within a few weeks.
My parents would wet their pants with laughter over their “privilege” - if you call literally being sent to relatives house to live because your parents can’t afford to feed you, or joining the military as your only avenue out of poverty. But I never heard that - it was always about education and every one of my siblings has an undergrad degree and it’s probably what made my parents most proud in raising us.
Like it or not a major factor in determining your poverty level is being born out of wedlock and dropping out of high school. No one wants to touch that with a 10 ft pole, but I dare say my “privilege” of running a small business, providing living wages and reasonable health care is not undermining anyone else. Pretending some social issues can be solved by taxing me more is short sighted.
"Like it or not a major factor in determining your poverty level is being born out of wedlock and dropping out of high school. "
I’ll touch that without a ten foot pole. I agree with you on the dropping out of high school. In terms of being born out of wedlock, I think it depends on the circumstances. Being born out of wedlock to two college educated parents with incomes to support a family, or even just the parent with the primary response of raising the child, I doubt it would matter much if the parents aren’t married. I think you have to unbundle the “out of wedlock” from other considerations and circumstances feeding into that child’s rearing.