<p>Haystack - Thanks for a very pragmatic idea/solution if he does elect Bucknell. I do appreciate that very much . . .he really likes math, and I do think you are providing some good (and new to me) advice on how to take the liberal arts curriculum and make it into a more employable option.</p>
<p>Fly Me to the Moon - - Both the schools where he was accepted liberal arts are just very competitive. They can take better students, and why wouldn’t they? The larger university however does provide a clear pathway, and it isn’t that onerous, to switch majors into engineering. I think it is feasible for my son though not necessarily easy. The LAC, I think it highly unlikely he’d make the switch . . .because he’d have to be better than at least some of the kids they accepted into the program (most of whom presumably have better resumes already). So it’s tricky because he is accepted into other engineering programs (3) suggesting there are places he can do the work and potentially thrive.</p>
<p>luvthej - I do hear what you are saying. The science he has struggled with the most is actually AP biology. He did well in chemistry and does well in math. Physics is hard for him, but he’s doing okay. However, I think some of this really comes down to a motivational issue. He’s very, very social . . .I’m not sure if that will change. And that may not be compatible with engineering. But I hate to preclude it because in reality people do mature, and when you are faced soon with the prospect of living your life without your parental support system - - I think your choices and motivation evolve. Regardless, I think you are 100% correct that there ARE red flags. I’m actually trying not to ignore them while also not shutting the door on opportunities prematurely. Unfortunately, we just are faced with the concept of shutting those doors now should he decide to attend the LAC . . .which is tough to face . . .</p>
<p>deb922 - I could not agree with you more. I feel the program he was accepted directly into engineering has some good support systems including a mentoring group and a number of other supports. I feel the other big university’s supports look fairly minimal. The LAC support is very strong if you are in the engineering program lol. Thanks for sharing your son’s success with me! I do feel hopeful for my son. I think he has underachieved, but he’s a good, popular kid, and the academic potential is there . . .should he choose to tap into it.</p>
<p>Thank you all SO MUCH for the insightful comments - - you are definitely helping me refine my own thinking on this issue - - which is what I needed.</p>
<p>Ultimately, we will leave the choice up to my son, but I want to be able to point out the pros and cons and help him think it through.</p>
<p>I guess if the money works out, let him go to the school he wants to go to the most. The engineering program will work itself out one way or another but if he picks a school just for engineering and it doesn’t work out, will he want to stay at that school? It’s a little like a kid being recruited for sports–will they like the school even if they don’t play that sport?</p>
<p>Amarylandmom, just to tell you, my S was a straight B chemistry student and a mostly B+ math student. He was good in biology and B’s in physics too. I think his gpa was around a 3.4. Now he did score a 760 in his SAT 2 chemistry so we knew he had it in him. He went to a highly competitive high school and found college easier. Did better too. So I wouldn’t say your S can’t do it if this is what he wants.</p>
<p>I do want to say that my D was accepted to Bucknell and went to a similar school. The competition was fierce. No curves in her calc classes. None. As she went farther in her major she found that the curves were better but first year, not at all. They were hard, everyone was so smart and even more prepared than she was and she was a much better student than her brother.</p>
<p>One thing that was difference between the 2 schools that my kids went to was the competition. S found that his HS prepared him better than most of his peers. He was ahead of the curve and found freshman year to be easier than HS. For D she found that everyone was as prepared as her, had as many or more AP classes and for many her school was not their reach, but their safety. Much different. </p>
<p>Things evened out as they progressed and I think they both got great educations. And both in the end loved where they went to school. I’m trying to be brutally honest in my feelings.</p>
<p>Haystack, interesting comment, my son argues that he wants to double major in engineering and econ…something he could do at Bucknell and it’s ilk. Something he probably couldn’t do at the public engineering schools. It is a quandry.</p>
<p>You need to feel confident. You are paying for his education. Remember too that sometimes being full-pay gives kids an advantage admissions-wise. Consider whether he might not have gotten into Bucknell at all if he had needed significant aid to attend. Is he going to feel “not as smart” as a lot of the other kids there? One way you can help ascertain this is to look at profiles of admitted students on this site or also on collegenavigator.gov. </p>
<p>Kids at this age, in my opinion, need to feel wanted, and to start out their college years believing that they can succeed. Can he do an overnight at the school you like for him? Since you describe him as very social, that might be important in helping him make his decision. It was for my son–the overnight sealed the deal at the college he is currently attending. He wanted a school where he would be academically challenged and have to work hard, but that was also fun. So far his first year has been exactly as promised. As long-time posters on this site say over and over, fit is really important.</p>
<p>deb922 - So appreciate the encouraging story about your son. That sounds a lot like mine really. He is in an extremely competitive high school . . .at least 10% go to Ivies every year. Nothing is graded on a curve and there is no grade inflation. So I think if he goes to a good engineering program, but perhaps not the creme de la creme - - then he could get through it. When I hear about your daughter’s experience, it definitely makes me think he shouldn’t go the LAC route. I just talked to a couple of engineers as well - - who also felt he should go where the engineering program has accepted him. Now it’s convincing him somehow to help him think it is his own idea . . . lol.</p>
<p>sally - I don’t know if the schools in contention have that overnight option, but it is a good idea to try! I’m really with you that it would be better to go where he is wanted . . .way better . . .</p>
<p>The thoughts that I would have are “what are his/your thoughts about going from private school to public college” and “what is his aptitude and interest in Chem E.”</p>
<p>Based on your descriptions, he is drawn to ChemE without much background knowledge and has not the elite aptitude in the subject or related subjects. Thus, realistically, transferring into Chem E would be almost impossible. Then I would say start at the place where he was accepted ChemE so that he can try it. If he loves it, then great! If he doesn’t love it, the univ has enough majors and classes that he could sample and really find his true interests. If he doesn’t start at this college, then he will never know if Chem E was the great major for him.</p>
<p>Then comes the question, if he comes from an elite private HS, what are his and your thoughts of going to a public college. We come from private HS, so I know that this is not necessarily a trivial issue. See if you can have him block out the snobbery and peer pressure. Ignore what others might say and make the best decision for him and for you. This was extremely hard for DD HS 2012 to do. Based on your post, seems like he would be able to do just great at the public school with the Chem E acceptance.</p>
<p>If he goes to a very competitive high school, there is a chance he will find college easy, and actually get better grades than he has been getting.</p>
<p>I think you may have hit the nail on the head when you talk about the importance to my son of the “brand name” of the school . . .I feel there is a subtle pressure taking him over on that front. To some extent, I feel it too, but I can ignore that emotional (silly) side and look at the practical matter at hand. And when I do that, I think the public universities make a TON OF SENSE for exactly the reasons you are explaining.</p>
<p>He may hate Chem E . . .and that’s fine. As you point out, he can readily switch to something else if he starts there. And we’d have money to pay for any extra semesters it might take at a public university . . .</p>
<p>Start at the LAC, and the door is closed tight and may never open. That just can’t be the right move . . .the more I think about it, the more I think not.</p>
<p>Now whether I can help my son to see that without “forcing” his choice . . .that’s another matter.</p>
<p>I think that would be distinctly possible at some of these institutions. Probably not at the LAC that took him for liberal arts . . .but maybe even there . . .I’m hoping so . . .but would be okay with his existing grades if he was in an engineering program with similar grades.</p>
<p>Thank you for being encouraging . . .</p>
<p>Now, if I could just figure out the persuading the son part of this, I’ll be all set ;).</p>
<p>The pressure is from not only students but also the HS faculty, teachers etc. and it’s not even that subtle. it’s hard to shut out that chatter, but really try to find a way for your son to stick his fingers in his ears and say “la la la”. Also engineering at public uni is very hard to get into!!</p>
<p>Also, with an SAT of 1960, he may prefer being toward the top of his public college class rather than towards the bottom of his private LAC class.</p>
<p>And just think what you could do with the extra $60k…semesters abroad, extra year to graduate college, a car for cruising around campus, or a down payment on a condo??</p>
<p>On the money issue…son is going to a public despite having grades and scores for a school like Bucknell…</p>
<p>I think the best thing you can do is to ‘visualize’ the differences in costs by putting them in a table/spreadsheet and see what you think. When we did that, it became clear, for us, most more ‘prestigious’ privates were not worth the money. YMMV.</p>
<p>As an example…</p>
<p>Tulane $57,000 tuition/fees/room/board; $20,000 merit award; net $37,000 plus $3,000 per year for travel…$40,000 total</p>
<p>Iowa State $15,500 tuition/fees/room/baord; $3,000 meit award; net $12,500; no travel expenses; $12,500 total</p>
<p>4 years at Iowa State with 2 summers doing study abroad at $7,000 per summer…$64,000</p>
<p>4 years at Tulane with NO summers doing study abroad…$160,000</p>
<p>Difference…$96,000. What else can you do with that money? Fund a fifth year for a double major. Fund a semester abroad during the regular school year. Not worry about son having to work during the summer to help pay for school. Take a family trip abroad during the summer. Set money aside for a future house downpayment.</p>
<p>Alternate view here. Call the schools where he was not directly accepted to engineering. Find out if he can take the science/math required courses his freshman year and if he does well, will they allow him to switch IN to engineering.</p>
<p>You know…not every engineering graduate in college was super strong in HS…and accosted directly into engineering.</p>
<p>DD was one if these students. She was admitted to her first choice school (one with a strong engineering program) as an undeclared arts and sciences major. She didn’t even bother to apply directly to the College of Engineering as her SAT scores were not nigh enough.</p>
<p>Flash forward…she took the same science and math sequences as the engineering students her freshman year. She then asked to declare an engineering major at her university. She was allowed to do so. Along the way she picked up a second major in biology. </p>
<p>Somehow this student graduated with two majors…engineering and biology.</p>
<p>“The pricing at these schools will range from $90k to $130k. The money we have set aside for college is in his name so he would have $50-$90k left to start his life, go to grad school, save, or whatever with these options. The LAC would utilize all the saved money and then some.”</p>
<p>This is shocking to me. You’re giving your 17-19 year old son $180K? Am I hearing you right?! If so, that’s a license for an amazingingly fun college experience (no part-time jobs required, excellent spring breaks, beer for everyone…). Even I, a very responsible and goal-oriented 18 year old dude, would have screwed that one up. </p>
<p>Regardless $230K on any degree, much less a liberal arts one is, in all likelihood, not worth it for most people. But as it appears you have extra to spend, whatever increases you and your son’s happiness I guess.</p>
<p>“If your son is interested in math but not up for the grind of engineering, then by all means look at Econ as a major.” - Ah, I wish our hired college coach had given that wise advise. </p>
<p>We hired the coach because as engineering parents we knew little about non-STEM colleges. DD (a NMSF) had struggled in overload mode in hs IB courses, and she was considering liberal arts. The coach steered her back to engineering. She did like the small geeky atmosphere at the STEM college but dropped out twice (long saga, including a year of real work in between). Engineering is HARD, with relentless homework etc. It has MANY required courses (often dry). For some kids (especially if adhd-ish), it is difficult to persevere when not passionate about the topic. </p>
<p>These days she enjoys her Econ major - it allows techie classes and lots of other course choices.</p>
<p>There are dozens of careers that a strong math student can explore that have nothing to do with engineering. Actuary, statistician, urban planning, architecture, agronomy, anything in econ, etc.</p>
<p>I agree with the suggestion to call the school where he was not admitted to engineering. Find out if it’s possible to move in- or not- and find out if the decision was some arbitrary “here’s the cut-off and you didn’t make it” or if it was a holistic discussion about what your son brought to the table.</p>
<p>You haven’t shared anything about your son that screams engineering to me. A kid strong in math who isn’t set on a particular career path sounds like the perfect candidate for a LAC where he can explore lots of different paths until he finds his bliss.</p>
<p>He doesn’t need an engineering degree to be employable after college- and struggling mightily for four years where he’s the one bringing up the rear in every class doesn’t sound like much fun either.</p>
<p>Haystack - I like your approach to the finances. Money isn’t everything in our situation, but I still feel that it is important to consider it like any other large purchase. Is the value there? I will say that I think expensive places can deliver value - - so it isn’t necessarily NOT there at the LAC. I just am not sure if my son will personally get the value in this specific instance.</p>
<p>Thumper - I do think it is worth taking the step you describe. I am just concerned that my son wasn’t admitted because there were obviously way better candidates - - and now to go in and successfully compete in that particular venue just may not happen. It’s so hard to know. </p>
<p>WhatDidYou - - Lol, I am not handing over $180k to my 17 year old. The money is for college first of all. I will confess that I never expected he wouldn’t go to a small/mid sized private and might go to a big state public at a fraction of the price. $180k doesn’t meet the requirements for four years at any competitive privates (no aid for us). However, if it is underspent - - the money is in his name, so at age 21, leftovers will revert to him. I think if he does go to a public he may not graduate in 4 yrs anyway - - and so I think the amount leftover will be very nice to have, but not ridiculous.</p>
<p>colorado_mom - I was an economics major myself . . .I loved studying it, but when I graduated (1988), the job market was reasonable and liberal arts was revered. I’m definitely concerned that the situation is not the same today and without some technical skills that earning a living will be challenging right out of college. </p>
<p>blossom - Maybe I’m overworrying, but the unemployment rate . . .articles like the one below are in the media constantly (this one is a year old but still). Recent college grads are struggling. I’m of the mind that the children are not to move back home after college – so a job is important. Preferably a good job. It is very easy to change careers from a point of strength like engineering or computing because you have marketable skills and more importantly, you have the income which can allow you to save enough to take time to make the switch or buy the education you need. Obviously it is my son’s choice to make - - but I do try to lay out the realistic scenario of employment right now. </p>
<p>I do agree however that struggling through four years of college isn’t the answer either. Not sure that will necessarily happen at the right school - - which I’m pretty sure is not the LAC in question. But he thinks it is – so if that’s the case, I think another major is probably appropriate.</p>
<p>I think it is a good thing to be thinking about employability. I recently looked at the employment stats for 2011 Northwestern graduates. At the time of graduation, somewhere around 25-30% of the grads were either unemployed, planning on doing ‘volunteer’ work, working part-time, etc. I am guessing most of those are grads in anthropology, history, comm studies, etc that graduated inthe bottom 25%.</p>
<p>My son plans to be an anthropology (archaeology) major at this time. We are fine with that but are asking him to do a second major in something employable. He also really likes Econ so is leading towards an applied Econ degree with an emphasis in agriculture policy/marketing (his school has 100% placement in this field). He is also looking at agronomy, geology, and urban planning.</p>