<p>I attended an engineering school years ago. I recall a very high “wash-out rate” for engineering majors, due to the academic rigor, homework load, and sometimes diverging interest of individual student. Many engineering students defaulted into “business” or “comp sci” majors. Many eng students need 5+ years to complete a 4-yr degree program too. I’d check to see whether same occurs at DS’ first-choice school’s engineering program. There are likely some similarities between chem major coursework and chem eng major coursework, with classes perhaps same. (This was situation at my undergrad school.) Check whether DS can later switch into chem eng, even if it takes an extra semester.</p>
<p>I think it’s very hard for 18 year-olds to “lock-in” major as an incoming freshman; I did, and my undergrad program had a 50% attrition rate. DS’ grades seem a little low for Top 50 school’s engineering major, which usually attracts kids whose “A-grade” best HS subjects were math/science. How solid is his commitment to chem eng? Is his preference more due to “chem eng = high salary” thinking? Engineers aren’t too snobby about undergrad school selection, so long as it’s an accredited program. But engineering salaries often plateau fairly early careerwise, particularly for the stereotypical “engineering personality” folks who’s social skills are relatively weak. He may benefit from LAC education nonetheless, and can always transfer to another school if chem engineering is still his specific preferred major. Many LACs flag specific undergrad engineering schools who take “3/2” LAC students seeking a BS in engineering along with their BA LAC degree - Washington U is one.</p>
<p>Also, if you’re thinking Rose Hulman as DS’ “fall-back” position, given your concerns (which were ours as well) please go visit campus one more time.</p>
<p>Just don’t get it in your mind that public U engineering is any less competitive. They have all the smart kids who didn’t have money for the privates. At our public the engineering students start off from day one on a long trek of required courses. I think it would be difficult to transfer in especially since the college is now geared toward making you graduate without taking any extra semesters.
I don’t know your LAC but typically the larger publics have many more majors from which to choose. I think that’s very important.</p>
<p>gouf78 - Yeah, I’m sure it is going to be hard no matter what. But in my mind, at the public school there’s way more options if engineering doesn’t work out (as you point out), and because the cost is significantly lower, I’d be fine with him taking the extra year if need be.</p>
<p>higgins - Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I loved Rose-Hulman, but unfortunately my son is not nearly so enamored with it. I don’t think it will be in the final mix. I have heard lots of people do switch out of engineering . . .I believe that is still the case. I do actually think it may be very hard for straight A students from varying high school experiences to go into a program and get the lower grades and then to stick with it. I was one of those perfectionistic students, and it was very hard the first time I really actually had less than success . . .which to me was like a B-. One thing my son doesn’t have to contend with is that. His classmates are going to Yale, Harvard and a zillion other incredible places so he is already used to being in fast paced classes with no curves and little hand holding. He may not be a stellar engineering student, but I actually think the likelihood of him quitting is lower . . .he plays a varsity sport under similar circumstances . . .one of the less naturally talented and not a starter, but loves the sport and has stuck with it regardless despite not being an everyday player. He’s not perfectionistic, but he’s not a quitter either. It may carry him through at a school where he’s actually been accepted for engineering (which I assume means they think he’s at least capable of the work). I view a more technical undergraduate degree as a great door opener, but I think my son is likely to end up in more of a managerial/business type position . . .which will fit his personality. His social skills are well developed . . .</p>
<p>Haystack - - Your son sounds terrific! I think it is harder these days to simply pursue things for the “love of it” . . .but it sounds like you’ve helped him find a good balance. It is incredibly hard to know what will make you happy for the long term at 18 years of age. My husband and I both picked career paths that we would not have picked again if we could do it over. His career required a lot of extra education and really hard work . . .and at the time he thought he wanted that . . .but careers and professions also change over time, and his has not been terribly enjoyable. On the flip side, it is lucrative, and that does have provide some compensation . . .but my point is that it is hard for an 18 year old to really know what they want to do, and it is hard for a parent to guide them properly so that more doors are open than are closed. I’m just trying to help leave options open . . .</p>
<p>The one thing I will say is that the public universities may not be less competitive, but two did admit my admittedly less than stellar student to their engineering programs - - so it must be a BIT less competitive I’m thinking . . .I’m sure it is still darned hard work once you are doing it regardless - - since the curriculum seems quite similar wherever you attend, but the profile of students must vary.</p>
<p>I think it depends on how sure he is that he wants to be an engineer. Kids change a lot in college.</p>
<p>A friends of mine’s S was accepted into the engineering component of a great LAC type school with engineering. He wasn’t really set on being an engineer, but he is very capable in those classes, did the degree, but hated it and became an actuary. He would have been better off with a math degree.</p>
<p>So much math is used in the financial and computer industries that there are many jobs without grad school for math majors.</p>
<p>Engineering is kind of like grad school with its vocational aspects and narrow focus. It’s perfect for the right kid, and hell for the wrong kid.</p>
<p>The answer hinges on how set your kid is on engineering.</p>
<p>If he really wants to try engineering, I would strongly encourage him to attend the school that insures his place as an engineer. If he is much less sure, I would encourage him to choose the school where he would discover himself the most and explore other options, provided there was SOME opportunity for him to transfer into that program.</p>
<p>If he chooses the LAC and does well in the basic STEM classes, he can always transfer to a technical school or state school if it becomes clear that he does want to be an engineer and can’t make the switch into that program.</p>
<p>In terms of school size, I am surprised that even though my D thought she wanted a smaller school with more personal attention, she realizes that she really wants a medium to large school with more possible friend groups, opportunities and a major city. Now she wishes she had applied to a few more larger universities. If your son is as outgoing and flexible as he sounds, he could do well at a larger school, if he really wants the engineering path. Go back and visit. You never know. People do adapt and grow.</p>
<p>mythmom - - I appreciate your perspective on math being a strong major . . .I do think that might be what my son would pick in the alternative - - math or math/econ. I’m probably overly worried . . .but it’s hard for me to quite get over the fact that we could buy a house for what we are about to expend, and I want it to be a place where my son has as many opportunities and open doors as possible.</p>
<p>marybee - It is so hard for the kids to know what they might like given they haven’t been exposed to it yet. He’s only gone to small schools, so that seems comfortable. I get that. But he has a huge passion for sports, and I think he might like a bigger more rah rah university just as well. We will definitely do some more visiting to try to nail this situation down. Thanks for the note.</p>
<p>2 key things I have learned from this site…</p>
<p>“You can make a large school feel smaller (choose a small major, participate in clubs and orgs) but it is largely not possible to make a small school feel large.”</p>
<p>“A large school provides an ever-changing buffet of people, classes, majors, and activities from which to choose.” Who doesn’t like a good buffet?</p>
<p>I think the final decision for me would depend on how much DS wanted to go into engineering. Is engineering more driven by your wants than his? </p>
<p>Has your son looked into job shadowing? Tagging along with a Materials Science Engineer for a day brought the engineering profession into focus for DS and he realized there are other fields he would rather pursue.</p>
<p>Trilliums - He is doing a job shadow/mini internship, but unfortunately it doesn’t start until mid May - - after we have to put the deposit down on a school. I would say that the desire for the engineering is primarily stemming from enjoyment of chemistry and math classes plus parental encouragement of a STEM course of study for undergrad . . .not a whole lot else. His ideal career path would be to play professional sports, but unfortunately that’s not going to be an option.</p>
<p>Haystack - lol, I’ll bear those gems in mind!!</p>
<p>My son is a freshman. Everyone always pointed him towards engineering - including us - because he was so strong in math, problem solving, science, and seemed a really hands on guy. Since engineering had so many requirements we said start out in engineering, you can always move out of it, but it isn’t easy to move into it.</p>
<p>He discovered a few weeks into the first semester - he didn’t like his engineering class AT ALL. He had a lot of interests and the schedule was so set in stone there was no room for anything else he wanted to study.</p>
<p>He’s now a math major. Later on down the road he can get his masters in almost anything.</p>
<p>Thank goodness we sent him to a school that you didn’t need to declare engineering and be accepted into the program. He was accepted into engineering programs at different schools but we chose this school because of its open curriculum.</p>
<p>Unless he is gung ho engineering, I’d be open to choosing the school he loves. Just my opinion - engineering is so specific and leaves out so many opportunities for different kinds of classes I’m glad he switched so he can get a more broad education.</p>
<p>Thanks for providing a different perspective, eyemamom. It really is challenging to know how to proceed. None of the schools my son applied to seem to have a totally open, do whatever you want mentality. It’s great that you found one that did. Of course, we didn’t really look for that because at the time, it didn’t seem important. My impression is that it is pretty easy to transfer out of engineering though . . .I’m sure my son could do that at either large university . . .</p>
<p>In truth, I am open to him choosing the LAC . . .but I just feel that without the direction it could be a big waste of money . . .I would definitely not describe him as an intellectually curious person. He’s very pragmatic . . .he’ll probably do very well in the real world, but academics are more of a means to an end for him.</p>
<p>I thought I’d just check back in and let everyone know what happened - - in case it helps someone else one day.</p>
<p>My son chose the LAC (his #1) choice. He decided to take the first semester of engineering curriculum which was permissible. After the first semester, his grades really weren’t high enough to transfer into the Engineering program, so he decided to take some math and statistics courses. He absolutely went wild for his statistics class and decided to major in Applied Math with a concentration in statistics. He is thrilled and highly motivated and studying for the first actuarial exam.</p>
<p>In every other regard, he LOVES this LAC . . .so so happy there socially, playing his club sport, etc. It’s a great fit for him. At this point, I’m very satisfied with his choice as he has grown so much over the course of the year and seems to have a good direction. He is working full time this summer at an internship (paid), and is more motivated than I’ve ever seen him before.</p>
<p>Thanks to all of you who suggested that a math major might work out just fine. You were right!!</p>
<p>So nice to hear an update. I’m glad it all worked out. So often high school students don’t realize how many options there are beyond science PhD and engineering for STEM kids.</p>
<p>This is the first that I’ve seen this thread. I appreciate you giving an outcome for your son. My son will be attending a similar LAC for engineering in the fall. He has always loved math and science, but I too am concerned about the depth of his commitment to engineering, as he really hasn’t had engineering experiences so far. It’s good to hear about math alternatives, which I’m pretty sure would fit him well. Glad to hear that you are both happy with the LAC, despite the cost differential with public options.</p>
<p>I would have him explain why he thinks he wants to major in engineering. Is it because he has read all the articles about STEM fields being the most lucrative? Or does he really love engineering? I know this is a complicated choice, but I think that people should go where their gifts are, regardless of the trends and the hype. What is he naturally good at? It just seems wrong to pursue something that other people say is the thing to pursue, when he might be made for something else. We will always need writers, lawyers, artists, musicians, and doctors, as much as we need economists and engineers.</p>
<p>I’m not saying he should accept the ad com’s decision as final, but they do know who his future competitors are, and it might be wise to at least listen to why they offered him a place in the liberal arts school rather than the engineering school.</p>