How to approach such a student? Tell them to read this thread: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/2109082-what-are-some-good-schools-with-generous-merit-aid-p1.html
That moment when you realize that you can’t offer your high-achieving child limitless college choice is a rude (and sad) awakening. With our first, we foolishly visited some college campuses that were out of reach before we knew what a NPC was. We then had to tell our child, oops, sorry, that won’t work. We set a budget limit, figured out alternatives with the help of the good folks on this site, and all of the schools she applied to fell within that limit (assuming merit scholarships).
Here’s an idea - if your child doesn’t “like” a full ride option (typically a less prestigious flagship), make him or her explain WHY they don’t “like” it. Chances are there is no rational basis for their dislike. Before crossing off viable options, have them come up with a list of pros/cons - maybe 5 each - that are substantial. Maybe in doing the research, some of these free ride schools might rise in their estimation or collectively you may have decide that there are legitimate reasons to remove them from consideration.
Another option - let your child apply to one or two prestigious uber-reaches (with the understanding that if the financials don’t work, they’re off the table) and insist on a like number of parent choices (full rides). Come spring, with affordable options in hand and some admitted students visits, your child may come around.
Good luck.
I cringe when I read these threads…how many kids who have worked really hard throughout high school and have decent grades and test scores are at a community college or their lowest ranked in-state because that is all the family can afford? These kids are just glad they can go. And then we have kids who are stubborn and refuse to apply to potentially affordable or tuition-free schools? SMH. But lets be honest, they aren’t born that way, they are raised that way. Time for a reality check, the sooner the better.
@mountain88 per your post #78, our family fits most of the descriptors. We have a large family, refuse to take on debt, and have a good income, but we do not have the ability to pay anywhere near our EFC times all of our kids. The difference between our family and your posts, however, is that our kids know that budget controls their college attendance, and applying to schools with large merit is their focus. There is no emotional turmoil bc they don’t get to attend a “CC definition of dream college.” Attending college without financial stress, pursuing UG research, getting involved in areas of interests, and majoring in what they want to pursue vs what will make them the most $$, those are their dreams and merit scholarships have made them possible. Our kids are incredibly thankful, not resentful, for those opportunities. Without scholarships, their options are limited to attending a CC or commuting to a local U. Their upper budget is fixed. Period.
Acceptances to schools they cannot afford is really just rejection in a different form. Fwiw, unless they are independently wealthy or have a lot of assets in their name, the discussion is really more about parenting than finances. Students cannot take out enough loans to pay for expensive colleges if their parental contribution is expected to be beyond student loan levels. Since they can’t, there really is no basis for “the refusal to apply” unless they are planning to 1-not attend college the next yr or 2-live at home and commute to the closest CC. Who are they expecting to pay the bill when it is due and what are their plans when the school refuses to allow them to remain when the bill isn’t paid?
Fwiw, my full-scholarship kids have had great UG experiences at their very avg Us. These kids have not been your avg high school students. They have graduated from high school ready to take 300 and 400 level in-major courses bc they took multiple upper level college courses in high school. They have made their colleges work incredibly well for them. They have gotten immediately involved in UG research or other areas important to them. They have had wonderful professors who have become great mentors. They have great friends. They have also been blessed by specialized honors programs. As has already been pointed out, CC posters often do not recognize the opportunities that these programs offer top students.
Equally, my scholarship kids have gone on to have excellent careers or be admitted to tippy top grad programs. They have not felt intellectually deprived or unprepared and therefore incapable of competing with students from tippy top UG programs. They have taken grad level courses as UGs and independent study at times in order to pursue the highest level coursework possible for them. Ideal? Maybe not. But neither has it been limiting. (And that is the key point.) Their professors have really challenged them.
When I read thread titles about which school, x or y, will allow student to attend best grad school or have best career, my automatic inward response is the one where the student will excel, take advantage of every opportunity the campus has to offer, and be the best the student can be. That is how we raise our kids. They are responsible for being who they want to be. It is not dependent on school name. If they want to pursue “whatever,” they need to be the individual driving that pursuit, educate themselves about what it takes to get there, and make the decision to do it. And yes, it is fully possible from your completely avg public U. Our kids, their friends on their respective campuses, and kids just like them prove it every single yr. (Ds graduated from Bama this yr. Just amg a small group of friends from there, he is at a top grad program, another attending Harvard’s MD-PhD program, another at Cornell, multiple engineering friends working at jobs they wanted, etc. None of them are wallowing in lament bc their lowly public made their goals unattainable. Instead, Roll Tide!!!)
@Mom2aphysicsgeek lays it out pretty well, but I want to add my 2 cents about the freedom one has when one’s undergrad debt is minimal or nonexistent. We were a follow the money family. I have never seen either college my kids attended get a mention on cc. They’d be those "lesser’ or no name colleges referred to here with such disdain. However, graduating without debt made a huge difference for both. One is paying for grad school in a professional school with the money she is not paying back to the student loan people, and the other, who just launched, got job with a FAANG in SF and can afford her own place because she’s not paying off huge student loans for a school that wouldn’t have positioned her any better for a career.
Do what @Mom2aphysicsgeek suggested about really looking at what those affordable college have to offer. My youngest went to one that really pushed internships, but we looked at others that were all about research, global experiences, or service. Your kids need to start looking at how to bloom where they’re planted.
Could it be that choice of college will be the first time in their lives such kids will ever have to face cost constraints on their choices? I.e. while growing up, cost and affordability were never brought up by their parents when talking about choices.
We didn’t consider it a hard line approach to tell our kids we wouldn’t co-sign loans. We viewed it as the gift of getting them off to a good start without debt. We gave our kids a budget. In our case it was tuition at local school and live at home, or we can pay room and board if you can get a scholarship for tuition. No loans. Kid one has graduated and has money in the bank. Kid two will graduate with money in the bank. Both graduated from schools ranked around 80-120. Both had/have excellent jobs in their field lined up well before graduation, and made the most of their opportunities, which were plentiful at the schools they chose.
“I find this very hard to understand. Most kids could benefit hugely from starting out their careers (or grad school) with $150K or more in the bank instead of it being spent on an expensive college. There really isn’t much difference between $150K in the bank vs nothing, and nothing vs $150K in loans. After all at some point your kid has to save up for a wedding, house downpayment, etc. (unless you are rich enough to give them that money too). That’s just as burdensome as paying off a student loan.”
For some this is not the choice: those who have dilligently saved in a 529 plan. You can’t give your kid the money instead for a down payment or a wedding. The tax penalties for doing so woukd be astronomical.
College costs took more than half of our after tax dual income the years they were in college. But it wast a hardship because we had lived for the entire prior 18 years on one income saving the other. We had a much less expensive house than our income would allow. We gave up fancy vacations, got cars only after 12 years or more, etc… and saved, saved saved. That plus a good stock market and the tax advantages of college savings allowed us to give our kids the greatest gift of all ( in our opinion ) saying that they could go to any college and grad school they wanted. Education was our greatest priority. We were willing for this to be the area where we were luxury spenders.
If you aren’t able ( and many cant) or don’t want to do this then it has to be about talking about college budget very early. Like from middle school on, so there are no surprises.
“For some this is not the choice: those who have dilligently saved in a 529 plan. You can’t give your kid the money instead for a down payment or a wedding. The tax penalties for doing so woukd be astronomical.”
This is just not true. If your kid earns a scholarship then the 10% penalty doesn’t apply to withdrawal of an amount up to the value of the scholarship. Then you just pay ordinary income tax on the earnings, not the full value of the account, at the kid’s tax rate if the money is distributed to them after college. If say 30-40% of the amount in the account is earnings, the amount paid in tax will then be only about 10-12% of the account value (perhaps less if they don’t earn much in the year they leave college). Yes it’s a penalty, but not that significant, let alone “astronomical”. And almost any other saving you or they could have done for a wedding or down payment would have been subject to tax on the earnings.
@Twoin18 didn’t know that, re: the lowered tax implications for 529. That’s good to hear actually, since my kid went to a state school, hopefully will graduate in 3 years, and has a fair part of his tuition covered for this year thanks to a couple of scholarships. I was dreading what would happen with the excess 529 monies, which at this point will be pretty significant. Gee I would now have to figure out earnings for 17 years, that’s going to not be pleasant.
@ProfessorPlum168 I think many, if not most, of the 529 companies will be able to tell you what portion is earnings vs principal.
Yes, I have been in that situation. It was very difficult for me and very difficult for our daughter.
I was putting schools on her list that were offering her full tuition and full tuition plus scholarships. She said she was not interested in attending any of them. She wanted to go to an elite private school.
At one point, I figured her top choice would do the dirty work and not accept her. Nope. She got accepted.
I re-ran the NPC again, this time with more care and attention. I thought, MAYBE we could swing it. If we gave up that, put off this, and borrowed. Then, I realized I had forgotten to run the NPC for years 2, 3, & 4 when we would only have one in college, not two. That helped break the spell. It was clear to me then that it would be financial suicide and she needed to accept the best financial offer on the table and make the most of it.
She was very angry with me. Senior year of HS was not. fun. Summer after HS even less fun. She was not happy at the school we “forced” her to go to…until near the end of freshman of year and we noticed she was complaining less and even – gasp – said one or two nice things about school. We kept our mouths shut and let her figure it out. We let her take the extra car down to school with her, her sophomore year, and she got an apartment off campus. Those two things seemed to make a big difference for her.
She’s a junior now, doing well, and happy. I’ve heard her tell people she didn’t really like the school at first, but now she likes it a lot.
The application season and acceptance season for her, at her private HS, were unpleasant. Too much pressure and her self-worth was getting all wrapped up in where she was going to college. I get it. It would be way more fun to tell the people around you that you’re attending a Top 20 and have them GUSH all over you, versus telling them you’re attending the University of Kentucky and get tight tipped polite smiles or quizzical looks.
I’m happy to say it’s all in the rear view mirror for us now.
This was our situation: I’ve got 2 kids. The one that was not a straight A student, and did not attend private HS was content to go to community college and over-joyed to transfer to our in-state flagship.
The one with high stats who went to private HS? She expected to go to an elite school. And why wouldn’t she? Her peers in HS all had their sights set on them, the college counselor put them on her list, and everyone without any apparent concern for a budget!
I could talk until I was blue in the face, and she just couldn’t understand. I don’t even think she understood how hard it was for us to pay for her HS, even with the generous scholarship.
ETA …and to add insult to injury, two of her friends from low income families went off to Top 20s. Our D couldn’t grasp how we weren’t poor, but we couldn’t afford it.
One of the problems I see if that the parents have not managed expectations. @Midwest67 For example, letting student apply to elite private colleges without knowing the true cost of attendance if accepted and then kid is disappointed that the family cannot afford it. Sounds like a recipe for disappointment and disaster.
My D20 is only a junior but she knows exactly how much we have saved for college for her, she sees the statement every month, and we will only borrow money for what we would consider a “game changer” college as she should have many great in-state options (UCs) for half the cost.
The one thing we absolutely do not want to do is have her borrow any money for undergrad. For any graduate school she is on her own.
So the bottom line is communication so the student knows exactly what you as a family are willing to pay.
How much student loans to take out really depends on what kind of job a student is going to get after graduation. Both of kids didn’t have to take out any loans because I paid for their tuitions. D1 went into investment banking, therefore she could have easily paid back 100K of loans in 3-4 years. Not the case for D2 because she wanted to go to law school. It would have been hard for D2 to graduate with any student loans.
Re: #93
Agree that if you need to crush dreams, it is better to do it early (before applications) than when the dreams appear to be in reach (admitted, but parent knows that it is too expensive but has not told the student yet).
Ideally, yes. A budget upfront at the very beginning of the process, and a clear understanding by all re: willingness and ability to pay.
Still, even with “communication”, there is no guarantee that one’s teenager will gracefully accept the family’s budget and gracefully accept the options on the table.
@oldfort No student should take out $100k for undergrad. Full stop. I don’t care what career they plan to go into. First, most with IB dreams won’t end up in IB no matter where they go to undergrad. Second, IB is soul crushing, and the large majority leave after 1-2 years. Third, there is nothing like starting your career without debt; the higher the post grad income without debt, the better the lifestyle.
I think one issue is that not every student we see out here who wants to do something like investment banking (or engineering) makes it through and gets that job in the end. So it is a gamble to take out big loans. Stuff happens that is within a kid’s control (too much partying, not enough studying) and stuff that is out of their control (mental or physical illness, family issues, not able to make the grade academically or missing some personality component to succeed in the hoped for career). And also, as @itsgettingreal17 says, sometimes they just don’t like the career when they get into it, but are trapped in it if they have high loans.
So… I STILL think no one should take out more than their federal loans, no matter what hopes they have for a high salary upon graduation.
But I also see parents who are kind of vague on how grad school works, and what kind of funding is or isn’t required. For a masters or professional degree (MD, JD, MBA), the student generally pays for that. But a kid who goes for a PhD will (should) be in a program that will at least fund their living expenses. So sometimes I think parents are worrying about paying for grad school, when that will never come to pass. So they hold back money that might have been spent on undergrad.
In the OP’s case, what seems obvious is to tell the kid how much money there is, PERIOD. And run net price calculators on any school the kid talks about. Insist on a couple of safeties that are affordable. Don’t pay for the applications for schools where the NPC doesn’t work (kid for some reason still wants to apply, do it on their own dime). Also… get the other bio parent on the same page!
Yeah…I didn’t happen to own the same crystal ball so that I knew this at application time.