Student not interested in full ride schools

Parents Forum
101

I agree with @ucbalumnus that college is so much more expensive than anything else that it may be the first time a relatively affluent parent has to deny their kid anything.

Some families have to deny their kids things they want based on money starting in preschool, others are lucky enough not to hit that moment until college time, others not until grad school.

It does not mean the kid is selfish either. A kid may be super considerate in all regards and just not understand about how hard it is to pay for college, unless the parents explain it. It is all about communication and honesty about the family financial situation. And this discussion should be held EARLY, preferably before your child starts researching, visiting, and dreaming about colleges. It is harder to say, “No you can’t have this thing you really want,” than it is to say, “Here are the constraints on what you can choose. Now go out and pick one of the hundreds of colleges out there that are available within these few constraints.”

I agree with @maya54 that, for some families (including ours), college education is THE number one financial priority and what you start saving for your kids from the moment you get married. Even so, college is a huge expense beyond any other. I think it is important to let your child know as soon as you know what you will be able to afford and not afford. Then, when the time comes, help them see how very many colleges will work within that budget, so they can start researching and getting excited about those that do. And, always, communicate your love for your child and the belief that they will have a great college experience and a successful life because of who THEY are, not because of the name of their college. (This should be communicated anyway, even if your kid is going to Harvard!)

102

Given the rise in the market and how well our particulatar investments did combined with DD income tax rate being high paying the after tax income would have been a huge waste of money.

103

D1 is in her 6th year. Both of my nephews are also in IB and they knew that’s what they wanted to do since they were in high school. They are still enjoying their jobs and opportunities their jobs have to offer.
It is a luxury to graduate without debt and not everyone has that option.
Recently D2 had to make a choice of going to a top 4/5 law school with less merit aid or going to a lower ranking law school (still a top 14) with a lot of merit aid. The decision was to go to a higher ranking school even if it meant she would graduate with student loans, but we felt it would give her more options.
I think if by going to a higher ranking (or a PC way of saying “a better fit”) school means taking out some student loans may be worth it, as long as it is manageable. Education is an investment, just like buying a house, as long as you don’t take out more loans than what you could afford to pay or more than what it is worth then you should be fine.

104

It is often a luxury to have the IB/MC feeders within financial reach (even if one is willing to take federal direct loans). Of course, this means that the IB/MC recruiting is heavily affected by parental actions, rather than just student ability and motivation.

Law school happens to be one situation where valuation of schools is much more easily done, since the variation in student majors and goals is far smaller than for undergraduate (all studying law, all want to be lawyers; the variation may be in what kind of law and type of employer is desired). In addition, law schools (and other professional schools) are chosen and marketed much less based on the “experience” like undergraduate colleges, so “fit” for law school is mostly based on employment rates versus cost, rather than all of the other things that people on these forums include in “fit”.

So a student choosing between, for example, the #5 law school and #14 law school can compare employment statistics (e.g. https://www.lstreports.com/compare/columbia/gulc/ ) and determine how much #5 is worth more to him/her than #14.

105

^^Same could be said for some UG schools. I would check out school’s career survey.
IB is no longer the sexiest, highest earning profession any more, many graduates would prefer to work for high tech/start up companies. IB is just a profession some kids from my family prefer - no push from the parents.

106

@oldfort Better fit is not code for higher ranking. Believe it or not, some (perhaps most outside of CC) are not obsessed with ranking.

107

However, undergraduate schools with narrow ranges of academic majors and student goals are not all targeting the same majors and goals, unlike law schools.

Career surveys can be helpful for those looking toward post-graduation goals (job, graduate school, etc.), but relatively few colleges have publicly available career survey information by major. (However, they should.)

For some posters on these forums (apparently including, but not limited to, @oldfort ), “fit” is mostly or exclusively based on ranking. Which can make sense if you are talking about law schools, or if you are laser focused on goals where ranking is highly important (e.g. the usual IB/MC examples), and do not have financial constraints. But that does not describe most prospective college students.

108

@itsgettingreal17 - it is not just within CC. When you are paying 70K+ a year you want to make sure you get the most out of a school - that’s fit and life after college.

109

@ucbalumnus - the reason they do not show employment (or after life) by major because it really doesn’t matter that much when you are getting an liberal arts education, but colleges with different schools, like Engineering, A&S, architecture, would show surveys by school.

110

Not true. At colleges where career survey information by major is shown, different liberal arts majors can be very different in post-graduation outcomes. For example, compare applied math versus molecular and cell biology at https://career.berkeley.edu/Survey/2017Majors . Or compare economics versus political science there.

This is not always the case either, but even when it is the case, it is still better to have results by major (like in the survey linked above).

111

Appreciate every reply to my OP, and all the helpful suggestions. To clarify, we have been open with our child about finances and how their college must be affordable or it’s not a viable option. And no, this isn’t the first time we’ve said “no” financially. We are cost-conscious across the board.

What is happening, however, is when student searches for “best college for x major,” the top 100 typically don’t include the schools offering the free or nearly free attendance. Student then concludes that the “free” schools aren’t a good option because they won’t provide as good of an education, college experience, etc. Also student sees things such as the Stanford web site wherein it is noted you pay no tuition fees if parent makes under a certain income. So the student becomes focused on that type of “top” school that may turn out to be “affordable,” and not on the “free” schools.

You might say it is the lottery mentality - you know the odds are low, but yet you secretly hope you win so you devote time and energy to buying that ticket instead of doing rational things to improve your income.

It’s an interesting phenomenon - students want to tell their friends and family they got into a top school, but parents want to tell their friends and family their child got into a free school. Perhaps it is because parents better understand financial reality and the constant allocation of limited resources. Admission to a “good” free school has value, just as does being admitted to a top school. Some may say more value.

To keep options open, we did apply to a “free” school and an instate major school. Something I’d like to hear others opinions on - is there value to applying to a top school, just so for the rest of your life you will know if you had what it took to get admitted? Or is that self-torture if you likely can’t afford the school?

112

“is there value to applying to a top school, just so for the rest of your life you will know if you had what it took to get admitted?”

No, I would not encourage my kid to go through the process of applying and waiting for months to get accepted to a top college just to tell them there is no way we can afford the college. Why put them through that heartache?

113

There have been threads on CC by families who allowed their kid to apply to an unaffordable “dream school” just to see if they could get in (when they all knew they couldn’t actually afford to attend). Kids may say they’re okay with that, but when an acceptance comes in it can be really hard for them to accept that they need to turn it down. They secretly hope parents can/will pay and wonder why they let them apply if they really can’t/won’t. It’s a horrible situation. If you know you can’t afford a school, I wouldn’t let him apply there.

114

@oldfort That’s quite sad, actually. I hope parents aren’t telling their kids that because they are paying $70k/yr, they need to go to the highest ranking school they get into or that the highest ranking school will determine their life after college. I excuse that type of thinking from teenagers without life experience to know better, but not from parents. Smh

115

@itsgettingreal17 - not need to feel sad. I am very realistic and honest when I speak with my kids. My kids are usually praised for their maturity at work and their willingness to work harder than their colleagues. I have many years of life experience and I continue to see what excellent education could do for someone.

What some people do not want to admit is those rankings do mean something. You may not agree with every attributes they used to rank schools and whether one school should be ranked higher than another, but quality of education between a school that’s ranked 10 vs 100 is different and maybe not so much between 10 vs 20. My kids knew they could choose within a certain range of schools (didn’t push D2 to do SCEA at Yale when she wanted to ED Cornell), but it would have been a no if she had wanted to choose a school close to a beach because it would make her happier.
I was the one who agreed for D1 not to take the full tuition merit at a lower ranking school because I knew the kind of education she would be getting wouldn’t be the same and for her to get the job she wanted it was better for her to go to a higher ranking school. 6 years later her alumni connection is still important for her at work.
@itsgettingreal17 - we just have to agree to disagree.

116

D21 watched the process with S17. She gets the whole money situation, but I still worry! S17 was an average (slightly below??) student, interested in an education major and completely laid back about the whole thing. Ended up picking an in state option completely within budget and it totally happy there.

D21 goes to a different, more competitive high school, filled with 1%’ers. She’s only a sophomore, and she gets the budget issue, but i’m Guessing come senior year when many friends have their pick she will end up feeling short changed because we can’t just let her go wherever she wants. I was one of those kids who applied to Villanova just to see if I could get in - and I did! I was also the kid who got weird looks when my friend’s heard I turned down Villanova for SUNY. We’re going to do our best to work out the NPC’s so D21 doesn’t have the same issue.

117

@mountain88

I have never asked our D how she felt about getting accepted to a T20, but not being able to afford it.

I imagine it’s a mixed bag. She did see 4? of her classmates matriculate to this school. She says she was the only one at her HS accepted who did not go.

I had adults in the peanut gallery encouraging us to borrow and make this opportunity happen for her. Uh, no.

It’s not very helpful when others are acting like an acceptance is a golden ticket to a wonderful successful life, and wah-wah, you are missing out because you “didn’t do things right” and cannot afford it.

It can be very painful & confusing for a young person.

We were lucky, and had all decisions by Xmas. NPCs were run again with care, spreadsheet filled out with estimated four year cost of attendence, and that band-aid was ripped off over Xmas break.

She had time to come to terms with her viable options. Nevertheless, she was not happy about it. She begrudgingly went to the full ride school, and she still seemed angry & disappointed in her circumstances.

But, as I said before, she is happy now, and doing well. If she still harbors any resentment, I have seen no signs of it.

When recently talking about grad school, she said it doesn’t matter where she goes, as long as the program is accredited. She says she is looking for the best financial package. Her attitude was very, very different three years ago when so many schools were beneath her.

We would have been able to swing the room & board at a couple of her full tuition options, but I’m so pleased we had the full ride offer. It has meant a lot to H & I who have been in a work grind for years.

I had a short vacation this year, which felt wonderful & indulgent. H is taking a short trip in January back home to see his uncle. H might need shoulder surgery & we are not sweating in fear like we would have before.

In our situation, it was absolutely the right decision for her to grab the full ride.

Good luck to you!

118

@Midwest67 wrote,

Just an aside, but it is crazy that in a first world country like the United States, surgery can cause financial stress. When you have good health insurance, everything else is more affordable. With a child who has a major health disorder, we certainly could not have afforded full tuition at a private college if we did not have insurance that covers all but small co-pays.

I am struck by how inequitable and unfair this is.

I am glad to hear, @Midwest67, that your kid had a great college experience. Congrats to her on the full ride!

119

@Midwest67 , it takes a lot of guts and candor to post what you have, and I am 100% certain it is helping many people. You have my admiration.

120

@mountain88 - S has applied to two excellent state schools (where he would get full tuition). He does not want to go to one, and he would be fine going to the other (although not the best fit). The rest of his list includes mostly reach schools (in terms of acceptance or getting a big scholarship). The NPCs are not accurate for us due to divorce and being self-employed, but it is likely that the most selective schools would be affordable. So, S knows that all of his efforts on essays etc. may not work out (even if he gets accepted to a reach school) if the finances don’t work. He is very cost conscious but I’m still worried about him being disappointed. He is willing to take his chances and is realistic about finances. However, if I knew NPCs were accurate and the schools were definitely out of reach financially, he would not be applying to them. This is so stressful as a parent and I can very much relate to your dilemma.

Maybe your son could visit the actual departments of interest at the “free” schools and meet with some professors. He might end up liking what they have to offer and enjoy being wanted as a “big fish”. The opportunities offered to a student at the top of the applicant pool can be significant.