Student on Student Lacrosse Murder at UVa

Parent Cafe
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<p>To me, not all alcohol arrests are created equal. Suppose Student A walks into a bar underage, orders a margarita, is ticketed or arrested, and politely complies with law enforcement. Student may end up with a minor-in-possession conviction.</p>

<p>Student B, who is drunk and disorderly on a street, screams epithets at a female police officer, resists arrest, and fights handcuffs in the squad car, may also get a MIP conviction. But that’s a whole different ball of wax, and IMHO does suggest that the person may continue to be violent in the future.</p>

<p>All we know about Student A is that he showed poor judgment, like pretty much all young people do at one time or another. Student B showed poor judgment and poor CHARACTER. It’s the poor character that is the red flag for future criminal behavior.</p>

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<p>Hanna…I agree. </p>

<p>The only thing is that I thought the 2008 incident with Huguely wasn’t for underage drinking (he has previous arrests for that) but for public intoxication (and then resisting arrest as well). I agree that underage drinking is not the same as the other.</p>

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<p>*Young men are the ones who need to take measures to avoid abuse-- by not beating up young women, and by not drinking if they are unable to control their violence when they drink. *</p>

<p>I agree! But too often those who are “ugly drunks” are in denial that they are! Ugh! I saw a Dr. Phil episode and it wasn’t until the dad was videotaped being very verbally abusive while intoxicated and the dad saw the tape when he was sober did he believe that he could be that way. Before that, he would deny, deny, deny to his family that he was an ugly drunk. Maybe he was telling the truth (as he perceived it), but once he saw the tape, he was shocked that he acted that way.</p>

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<p>Report him for what? Are you saying the students should have reported him to administration? If so, for what?</p>

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<p>Agree with Hanna. When I read about the “diatribe laced with racial, sexual and otherwise vulgar terms” I thought Huguley sounded like a loathsome chracter aside from the violence.</p>

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<p>JHS, my daughter is a student at the University. I pulled this information from the Honor Committee website <a href=“http://www.virginia.edu/honor/:[/url]”>http://www.virginia.edu/honor/:&lt;/a&gt; </p>

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<p>It is my understanding that there are distinctions between the University Judiciary Council and the Honor Committee. Regarding the UJC: </p>

<p>[The</a> University Judiciary Committee](<a href=“http://www.student.virginia.edu/~judic/about.php]The”>http://www.student.virginia.edu/~judic/about.php)</p>

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<p>I’d emphasize “brought to it’s attention by any member of the academic or civic community.”</p>

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<p>Don’t applications ask if there are past arrests or expulsions from high school? It seems as though I saw that on an application somewhere.</p>

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Right. So, absent of this just how was the Univeristy “supposed to know” about the prior conviction down in Lexington??</p>

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<p>“Young men are the ones who need to take measures to avoid abuse-- by not beating up young women, and by not drinking if they are unable to control their violence when they drink.”</p>

<p>Of course it’s true that abusers need to stop, but what purpose does it serve to tell them that in a newspaper article? It’s a waste of ink to print a column telling abusive young men not to be violent and telling problem drinkers to abstain. You might as well print a column telling the volcano in Iceland to stop spitting ash. It’s not listening. It makes more sense to use the press to talk to potential victims who just might hear the message.</p>

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<p>Hanna – I agree, I do not understand how his threats to kill, the racial and sexual vulgarities spewed and his combativeness did not create an additional, higher level red flag to the female arresting officer. it would seem those behaviors warranted more than “resisting arrest”. he didn’t remember being tased, so clearly he wasn’t going to remember making the threats and certainly wasn’t going to report his arrest to UVA. I would think a police officer in a college town, Lexington would be concerned about his behavior back at UVA. </p>

<p>Sadly, it is likely that other students had seen his behavior, or heard about it and may have a very difficult time now having been silent.</p>

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<p>JustAMomof4…I don’t think the university could have known of it but it is hard to believe that friends and teammates did not know. For example, he had to attend things for alcohol abuse and do community service and so on. I can’t imagine that not a single friend knew about this. But all kept mum which is typical of peer pressure to protect their friends.</p>

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<p>I have a somewhat different take on this–I think it’s much too easy to seize on a few incidents and paint this guy as some kind of abnormal, monstrous creature. I think he may rather be a pretty normal guy who gets belligerent when he’s drunk. Personally, I find that even more frightening, because it means that this kind of thing can happen even with seemingly nice, normal people–if they get drunk. Note that his conviction happened in 2008–nearly two years ago–and he completed the probation, including community service and substance abuse education, apparently without incident. He’d almost certainly be playing lacrosse again by now even if U.Va. had known about it at the time.</p>

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<p>Thank you, Cardinal Fang; I was thinking the same thing. Everyone seems to be discussing what young women should do, or how parents of young women should be sitting down with them to talk about these issues.</p>

<p>All of which, as CF says, is absolutely necessary. But where are the calls for young men to learn to control themselves? Where are the calls for parents of sons to sit down with them and have long talks about anger management, and about treating women like human beings rather than possessions?</p>

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<p>Hunt—given what we know, it is likely that he got drunk frequently, thus likely demonstrating same belligerence with some frequency. typically by the time someone is getting arrested for being out of control, they are alcohol abusers, not occasional drinkers. </p>

<p>donnaL—absolutely, I have had many discussions over the years with fellow parents who let their sons get away with many bad behaviors with the boys will be boys excuse. we need to hold our kids accountable when they hurt others, bully others from the time they are little and be clear it will not be acceptable.</p>

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<p>CTTC I do not agree with you. There are many fine young people at UVa and most likely find young people on the lacrosse team, there are kids who are taking exams, kids looking forward to wrapping up their freshman year, kids getting ready for graduation at UVa, kids that were probably looking forward to this LAX tournament, most likely parents who post often here with kids at UVa and probably kids on these forums that are happily anticipating heading for campus in August…you do not punish all UVa students because of the actions of one and we would be wise to keep that in mind as we post. There are no parallels to the Duke situation that was speculated behavior of he entire team…big difference.</p>

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<p>Hunt, I am not saying he is an abnormal monstrous creature. But by the same token, I don’t see him as a normal guy who gets belligerent when he’s drunk. Admittedly, the details are not out yet of any harassment or other violence or abuse with Yeardley Love on Huguely’s part. However, in my view, based on much reading on this subject, domestic violence starts out small and can escalate. Alcohol is a contributing factor but it is not just the alcohol. The man is controlling and it is a power issue. Alcohol can exacerbate it, but the behaviors and traits are still there even without alcohol. The alcohol may make them go to more extreme behaviors but the traits still exist. Even when not drinking, there is a good chance that this young man exerted power over this girl, and was verbally abusive to her and more mildly physically aggressive on previous occasions. He may have harassed her on phone and in email. I don’t think the problem is simply that he misbehaved when he drank. I think others drink and don’t necessarily exhibit these behaviors. But add alcohol to an angry controlling abusive man, and it can be toxic.</p>

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<p>Hard to forsee if you child will become an ugly/abusive drunk. My mom’s dad was apparantly one of those…nice guy but then he’d come drunk and scream and swear and beat on anyone in sight. It wasn’t anger management he really needed - it was abstinence from alcohol, which happened by the time I knew him.</p>

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Very good point! In the recent article that Soozie cited, it said that Huguely’s not reporting the Lexington arrest himself was a violation of the Code of Conduct. I wonder if he reported his other problems with the law?</p>

<p>This article is interesting, but even more interesting are some of the comments:</p>

<p>[University</a> of Virginia leaders to meet with McDonnell | Richmond Times-Dispatch](<a href=“http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/state_regional/article/UVAA06S11_20100505-234002/342538/]University”>http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/state_regional/article/UVAA06S11_20100505-234002/342538/)</p>

<p>"Currently, some police departments call the university as a courtesy, but it is not mandatory.</p>

<p>‘Strikes me as odd,’ Casteen said, ‘that the law does not require that kind of notification.’"</p>

<p>Here are some comments beneath the article that address Casteen’s statement. I think these commenters make really good points!</p>

<p>"Criminal records are protected by Federal laws. Once the person turns 18, there is no right of anyone to know anything. </p>

<p>Where would you stop? Will this include a requirement to report EVERY arrest of every student? In any type of institution? No matter where the student lived? What about all the
technical schools that are ACCREDITED by the same accreditation groups as the bigger schools? What about a student who takes one class at a time at VCU or UVA? What about a 45 year old guy taking a couple classes at Bluefield or ECPI? This won’t work. UVA need to change THEIR rules and REQUIRE students that are arrested to report it to the University. Make it an honor code violation not to notify the university if you are arrested, or if you know of someone else who has been arrested and have not disclosed it. </p>

<p>This is not the job of law enforcement, even if you could get the laws changed regarding the release of criminal information."</p>

<p>And this one:</p>

<p>“What strikes me as odd is that the universities don’t feel the same need to inform parents of behaviorial incidents involving their children on campus (or the kid’s grades) given the fact that parents are the primary source of funding for those tuition bills.<br>
As any university administrator will tell you, those students are, in most cases, adults in the eyes of the law, having reached the age of majority and are entitled to privacy. Both the victim and the perpetrator in these case were 22, well into their adult years.
The Lexington Police had no way of knowing that Hugueley was a UVA student, and the incident, while it may have been an indicator of future trouble, did not involve the university in any way and was none of the university’s business. While higher ed traditionally considered itself “in loco parentis, that view has changed over the years. Casteen and the other school presidents need to decide; they can’t have it both ways.”</p>

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<p>The UVA men’s LAX team should not engage in post-season play because they were…silent.</p>

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<p>Donna, I don’t want to get back into the nature-nurture battle that’s largely died down, but if you’ve raised a potential abuser, I don’t believe a heart-to-heart talk during his college years is going to do anything to slow him down. Maybe a lecture about how a felony conviction will ruin HIS life might have some sway. And at any rate, I don’t believe that the parents who’ve raised those sons, or are currently in the process of raising them, are interested in inculcating good values and would respond to any such “call” with beneficial action. Contempt for women is a core value that young boys learn (or don’t learn) during their upbringing. </p>

<p>““He was by far the most rude, most hateful and most combative college kid I ever dealt with,” Moss said.”</p>

<p>Wow. Given that this officer works in a sleepy college town where pretty much all of the police work centers on dealing with drunken frat guys, that’s saying a lot.</p>