Submitted: Virginia should become independent

[shoebox10]

<p>Tarhunt - they do, in the common data set. Do I think it’s highly accessible? No, definently not. I found it from a thread on here. If they made it more well-known, I think they could get away with an error on a university page. But as long as its somewhere, I can deal. And I was not trying to restart the private topic haha believe me. I was just pointing out that if they wanted to up their numbers (which they seem to be wanting to, judging by the false info), then they would either a) have to outright ignore the state’s want for 2/3 IS or b) go private. Seeming they won’t do choice b, now or probably ever, choice a will have to deal. So, the GA is going to get a suprise here soon. There is also talks of them raising enrollment by 1500 over the next 10 years, so maybe they’ll reserve those spots for OOS. Seems smart to me. Maintain the number of IS kids getting accepted, but give OOS (the sometimes “better” applicants…which they are probably, overall) a better chance.</p>

[Tarhunt]

<p>shoebox:</p>

<p>Let me restate. I think they have an obligation to provide accurate numbers everywhere they state them.</p>

<p>Actually, the 2/3 number is a bit misleading. Now that UVA is admitting all community college tranfers with a particular GPA, those numbers will help meet the 2/3 while allowing UVA to increase the number of OOS kids admitted to the first year class.</p>

[shoebox10]

<p>Well, thats a hard statement to back up. First, apperently at most VCCS schools, the whole transfer thing really isnt very widely known. Also, it will be years before those transfers enter UVa, because this year’s graduating senior class will be the first to have that option during application time. Some technically could transfer this year, but you have to have many requirements met, and most will probably have not met those requirements or won’t have a 3.4. While you’ll see some trickle in this year, I doubt it will be significant. Same for the next year, and even the year after that. Most students going to VCCS schools didnt have the GPA to cut it for college, and many might not cut it at VCCS. I doubt that it will help the OOS significantly, but maybe by a few percentage points. Also, under the VCCS plan, you must enter the College, so anyone with any other Assoc.D must apply and compete for a spot. Its a tough call, but I (as well as Dean Roberts, the transfer dean) doubts that the transfer agreement will affect transfers much in the upcoming years. Also, that 1500 student increase I mentioned before might allow room for these transfers.
However, I don’t totally diasgree with your point, its a very feasible way for UVa to increase OOS admissions. It is definently possible, and I wouldn’t be totally suprised if it led to this one day. I just don’t see it coming in the near future.</p>

[dajada07]

<p>Shoebox,</p>

<p>I think your enrollment estimates are a bit high as the projections below indicate. Nonetheless, these increases in enrollment just reflect the increase of the state’s population as the school would be hard pressed to keep a hard cap on the number (particularly as UVA’s enrollment is already significantly smaller than competitor schools like UC-Berkeley, Michigan, and UNC). </p>

<p>From the Board of Visitors meeting on May 25, 2005 (taken from the UVA website): </p>

<p>All Undergraduates
Total Projected for Fall, 2005: 13,200 (actual was 13,421)
Total Projected for Fall, 2011: 13,850</p>

<p>First-year students
Total Projected for Fall, 2005: 3100 (actual was 3112)
Total Projected for Fall, 2011: 3310</p>

<p>Transfer students<br>
Total Projected for Fall, 2005: 514 (actual was 532)
Total Projected for Fall, 2011: 530</p>

<p>Elsewhere on the same site, the State Council of Higher Education (SCHE) from March 3, 2005 had slightly different projections for the undergraduate population. </p>

<p>All Undergraduates
Total Projected for Fall, 2005: 13,609
Total Projected for Fall, 2011: 14,331</p>

<p>I also thought you might like some historical numbers that show how UVA’s student population has grown over the years. </p>

<p>All Undergraduates
1940: 2105
1950: 2929 (+39%)
1960: 3184 (+9%)
1970: 6576 (+107%)
1980: 11,046 (+68%)
1990: 11,304 (2%)
2000: 12,489 (+10%)</p>

<p>While the enrollment has grown and is projected to keep growing, the school retains a superb reputation throughout the Commonwealth and across the USA. Well managed growth can be a boon for the University and there are many projects now underway or on the planning tables that should keep UVA among the best public universities in the country. However, as I have argued many times before, if UVA wants to be among the nation’s very finest, public or private, it will have to accept and enroll a much larger percentage of OOS students. </p>

<p>Tarhunt,
That would be a clever idea with the way the transfers help the school keep its high IS percentage while accepting more OOS first-year students. Their projections above don’t indicate that that is the plan, but it is an interesting strategy.</p>

<p>And I agree wholeheartedly with you on the disclosure of information. If they want to keep the high SAT numbers on the Admissions page, they should make clear that this is for Admitted Students as the Common Data Set definitively shows an enrolled student body that scored lower on the SAT tests.</p>

[Tarhunt]

<p>shoebox:</p>

<p>I never meant to imply that admitting more CC students would suddenly turn the ration into 2/3 OOS and 1/3 IS. Just that it may allow UVA to admit more than 1/3 OOS to the first-year class.</p>

[Marsden]

<p>

Leonard W. Sandridge, U.Va.'s chief operating officer</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.gatewayva.com/biz/virgini...6/cover1.shtml[/url]”>http://www.gatewayva.com/biz/virgini...6/cover1.shtml&lt;/a&gt;

</p>

<p>Supernova, thanks for the quote and the link. Sandridge clearly has other goals in mind than the improvement of the University. In the article, he effectlvely dictates that his (or the administration’s) objective to increase geographical diversity *within *Virginia will take precedence over enrolling the most-qualified students from *within *Virginia. Not to mention OOS students. And on top of this, there is a new commitment to increase CC transfers. </p>

<p>That’s disappointing, to say the least. In my view, the considerable number of substandard in-state students is already one of the great weaknesses of the University, preventing it from moving into the first rank of American universities. Not only won’t that be addressed, the problem will apparently worsen. I also do not see the need to increase the size of entering classes, when there are already two dozen state-supported alternatives within the Commonwealth, several of them larger and with more room to grow. Quite the contrary, increasing the class size will be yet another way to depress the average scholastic quality of the student body. It’s almost as though it’s a deliberate scheme. </p>

<p>

The university’s in-state tuition for Virginia residents in 2006 is $7,703.

The cost of in-state tuition should be almost irrelevant here. First of all, it’s incredibly cheap. Secondly, if you’re in genuine need, you’ll qualify for a panoply of financial aid options. The University remains one of the best bargains in American higher education, as evidenced by Kiplinger’s and similar lists. Jim Gilmore’s remarks are particularly offensive and represent obvious politicking: he himself received two degrees from UVA, has two sons there, and claims that “the middle class that funded the university with their tax revenue” could be getting short shrift. As we’ve seen, taxpayers, middle-class or otherwise, are hardly funding this University. Sounds like the Gilmore family is profiting handsomely from the arrangement so far. </p>

<p>

State law mandates that U.Va. take approximately 65 percent of its first-year students from Virginia.

Nothing’s changed here, it seems. Quite the contrary, with the additional agendas described above, we’ll only be ensuring an increase in the IS/OOS quality disparity while lowering the University’s overall standards.</p>

<p>BTW, I’d love to see the actual text of the state law quoted above if anyone knows where I can find it.</p>

[Marsden]

<p>

I believe UMich’s peer assessment scores are noticeably better, which is what keeps it up with UVA.

Thanks, sv3a, I agree this is a likely explanation, in addition to those provided by dajada earlier in this thread (Financial Resources etc). </p>

<p>Now, someone please explain to me how admitting more CC transfers will positively address the 2/3 stipulation apparently written into the Code of Virginia?</p>

[Tarhunt]

<p>Marsden:</p>

<p>I have been told by someone who should know that the ratios are of total Virginians to total OOS. If the upper classes are disproportionately Virginian because of the tranfers, then UVA, in theory, could admit more OOS students while maintaining the overall ratios.</p>

<p>At least, that’s my understanding.</p>

[shoebox10]

<p>Tarhunt - I got your point, sorry if it came across otherwise. I’m just saying that I doubt you’ll see an increase in transfers mirrored by an increase in OOS first-years soley because I doubt there will be an increase in transfers that is significant to warrent this. UVa seems to try extremely hard to keep everything in balance, because if you look at 2005, an extremely low number of OOS students actually enrolled, so to answer, they accepted more OOS applicants for 2006. A much higher number thus enrolled, so my guess is that this year it will even out again.<br>
Dean Roberts (again, transfer dean) has explicitly made it clear that UVa tries to keep a strict 2/3 IS ratio in transfers, just to not mess everything up. Obviously its hard to keep it exactly 66.666% because some of the schools have a strict number of spots and its hard to tell who will and won’t enroll, but he says somehow they maintain it year to year.</p>

[Marsden]

<p>

I have been told by someone who should know that the ratios are of total Virginians to total OOS. If the upper classes are disproportionately Virginian because of the tranfers, then UVA, in theory, could admit more OOS students while maintaining the overall ratios.

</p>

<p>Tarhunt, that’s the only way I could have figured it. But given the quote about state law in this regard, the theory appears to be unlikely. </p>

<p>We still need to see the actual text of the law. It appears that it concerns admissions in which case accepting a disproportionate number of OOS *transfers *would be a way to affect the overall ratio. But that indeed may not be allowed. In my view, it’s the overall ratio which speaks most to the quality of the student body and of student life. </p>

<p>I expect that one of the other contributors here will be able to find the relevant text more readily than I. But if no one does, I’ll try and hunt it down.</p>

[UVADeanJ]

<p>

It appears that it concerns admission

The ratio is for the student body, not the incoming class. You can find the ratio referenced in many places, from President Casteen’s website to newspaper articles about the charter agreement.</p>

[Marsden]

<p>Dean, the quote above ( “State law mandates that U.Va. take approximately 65 percent of its first-year students from Virginia.” ) was taken from the article linked by super.nova above. It’s in error then?</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.gatewayva.com/biz/virginiabusiness/magazine/yr2006/dec06/cover1.shtml[/url]”>http://www.gatewayva.com/biz/virginiabusiness/magazine/yr2006/dec06/cover1.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>BTW, I don’t really think it makes much difference one way or the other, I was just curious.</p>

[super.nova]

<p>Marsden:</p>

<p>Maybe this explains it:</p>

<p>February 25, 2000, Cavalier Daily:

University President John T. Casteen III met with the General Assembly House Education Committee Wednesday to defend the University’s admissions policies regarding the ratio of in-state to out-of-state students.
The discussion was in response to a bill that would prohibit the University from admitting more than 33 percent out-of-state students in 2001.
The Committee voted earlier this month not to vote on the bill until next year. </p>

<p>Del. James K. O’Brien (R-Clifton) sponsored the bill.

<a href=“http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=3316&pid=543[/url]”>http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=3316&pid=543&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>March 9, 2000, Cavalier Daily:

MAINTAINING the current ratio of in-state to out-of-state students is essential to the quality and diversity of our student body and our University. The understanding we have with the General Assembly now is for a 65/35 mix with 65 percent of students from Virginia. In Virginia, the ratio is not legislated, although it is in many states, such as North Carolina. Instead, the University has worked out an agreement with the General Assembly on what the ratio should be. In actual practice, our first-year classes usually have 66 to 67 percent from in-state.

<a href=“http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=3552&pid=552[/url]”>http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=3552&pid=552&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>February 8, 2001, Cavalier Daily:

Out-of-state applicants to the University can breathe a sigh of relief, but maybe not for long. </p>

<p>House bill 2506, which called for limiting the percentage of out-of-state students in Virginia’s four-year public colleges to 25 percent, was killed in the House Education Committee last week.

<a href=“http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=7244&pid=6[/url]”>http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=7244&pid=6&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>November 13, 2003, Cavalier Daily:

While nonresident enrollment caps remain an issue of contention in North Carolina, Virginia does not impose a statewide limit on out-of-state enrollment for prospective freshmen in its public schools.</p>

<p>Some institutions, however, self-impose guidelines to maintain certain ratios of in-state to out-of-state undergraduate students. </p>

<p>For the past five years, the University has maintained an admissions ratio for incoming freshman of 67 percent in-state students to 33 percent out-of-state students, said University Dean of Admissions John Blackburn. </p>

<p>Blackburn noted that sensitivity over in-state versus out-of-state admissions is always present at public colleges and universities. </p>

<p>“Most people would support the notion of a diverse student body with students from all over the country and all over the world,” he said. “When it comes to their individual child, that’s where the problem comes in.”</p>

<p>It is significantly more difficult for non-Virginia residents to gain admission to the University since more people are competing for fewer spots, he added. </p>

<p>“Out-of-state applicants usually make up 60 percent of our applicant pool, and they’re competing for a third of the seats,” Blackburn said.</p>

<p>Karen Cottrell, associate provost for admission at the College of William & Mary, said her office sees similar trends of increasing numbers of non-resident applicants. </p>

<p>William & Mary maintains a ratio of 65 percent in-state students to 35 percent out-of-state students for the entire undergraduate body, so each freshman class will vary slightly in composition, Cottrell said.

<a href=“http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=17772&pid=1080[/url]”>http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=17772&pid=1080&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[super.nova]

<p>

Actually, the 2/3 number is a bit misleading. Now that UVA is admitting all community college tranfers with a particular GPA, those numbers will help meet the 2/3 while allowing UVA to increase the number of OOS kids admitted to the first year class.

</p>

<p>If 2005 was indicative, only 142 of 577, or less than 25%, of transfer students actually enrolling were from out-of-state. It will be interesting to see if UVa will now take even lower percentages of out-of state transfer students due to its commitment to enroll more community college students.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.virginia.edu/stats&facts/[/url]”>http://www.virginia.edu/stats&facts/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[Marsden]

<p>Well then. All in all, we begin to see a reason for Virginia’s slide in the rankings.</p>

<p>It’s a result of deliberate policy. While most universities are trying to improve their standards, Virginia is taking concrete steps to lower theirs.</p>

[super.nova]

<p>

Also, it will be years before those transfers enter UVa, because this year’s graduating senior class will be the first to have that option during application time. Some technically could transfer this year, but you have to have many requirements met, and most will probably have not met those requirements or won’t have a 3.4. While you’ll see some trickle in this year, I doubt it will be significant. Same for the next year, and even the year after that. Most students going to VCCS schools didnt have the GPA to cut it for college, and many might not cut it at VCCS. I doubt that it will help the OOS significantly, but maybe by a few percentage points. Also, under the VCCS plan, you must enter the College, so anyone with any other Assoc.D must apply and compete for a spot.

</p>

<p>Apparently, the University will enroll more community college students whether or not all of the students meet the requirements specified in transfer agreements:</p>

<p>

According to Roberts, the number of transfer students the University will take from two-year Virginia colleges will increase over the next several years. Last year, the University enrolled 185 transfer students from two-year Virginia colleges. The number of these students admitted will increase each year, and by the 2009-2010 school year, 300 out of 550 transfer students admitted to the University will be from VCCS. </p>

<p>“We will be taking roughly 60 percent of transfer students [from VCCS],” Roberts said. “Unless we increase the overall number of transfers, we will decrease the number of [transfer] students from four-year schools.”

The current legislature may also mandate that the University accept a minimum number of community college students each year:

In the upcoming legislative session, representatives will consider a House bill carried over from last year. It requires four-year colleges to annually accept and enroll a specific minimum number of associate degree holders . . .

Also, there will be transfer agreements between VCCS and all of the University’s Schools:

In April 2006, the University released its first transfer agreement with VCCS. This agreement guaranteed admission to the University’s College of Arts & Sciences to associate’s degree holders with at least a 3.4 grade point average and no grade lower than a C in a set of required classes. In addition, the University has committed to entering into guaranteed transfer agreements with VCCS for admissions to the University’s Schools of Engineering, Architecture, Nursing, Commerce and Education. </p>

<p>U.Va.'s Associate Dean of Admissions Greg Roberts said the next articulation agreement would occur between the Engineering School and VCCS, probably within the next year. Roberts pointed out that the agreement with the Engineering School will require higher standards, such as a higher grade point average, than the agreement with the College since the Engineering School is smaller.

There will also be dual admissions agreements with community colleges:

A new law that went into effect July 1, 2006 requires four-year institutions to establish dual admissions agreements with the state’s two-year colleges. This agreement commits the four-year school to admit qualified students at the time they enroll in a community college. According to the legislation, the four-year institution must automatically admit students who successfully complete their associate’s degrees and meet the other requirements contained in the agreements. The agreements must also “set forth the students’ access to the privileges of enrollment in both institutions during the time enrolled in either institution.” </p>

<p>According to Craig Herndon, the associate for academic affairs of the State Council of Higher Education for Virginia, the dual admissions agreements differ from guaranteed admissions. </p>

<p>“Acceptance is given on the front end for dual admissions and the back end for guaranteed transfer,” he said.</p>

<p>Stosch explained that dual admissions agreements provide a “seamless transfer” between two-year colleges and four-year universities.</p>

<p>“There’s too much of a hassle for young people to be accepted [separately] into the two institutions,” Stosch said.</p>

<p>The standards for acceptance into the dual admissions program at the University are still undefined. According to the Clorisa Phillips, university associate provost for institutional advancement, the University will be considering the requirements next year.

</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=28600&pid=1516[/url]”>http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=28600&pid=1516&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[Marsden]

<p>Supernova, thanks for your research. </p>

<p>As I said, a lot of the information is dismaying, but information is still power :)</p>

[shoebox10]

<p>[According to Roberts, the number of transfer students the University will take from two-year Virginia colleges will increase over the next several years. Last year, the University enrolled 185 transfer students from two-year Virginia colleges. The number of these students admitted will increase each year, and by the 2009-2010 school year, 300 out of 550 transfer students admitted to the University will be from VCCS.</p>

<p>“We will be taking roughly 60 percent of transfer students [from VCCS],” Roberts said. “Unless we increase the overall number of transfers, we will decrease the number of [transfer] students from four-year schools.”]</p>

<p>That’s crap! Sorry for that word, but that’s insane. I would think that 4-year students are much better off at UVa than a CC student. Plus, that means kids can screw off during HS, go to a VCCS, do decently with far easier classes, and then go to UVa. Stupid in my opinion. Obviously not all will be this way, but come on.</p>

[elgordo]

<p>Shoebox10, you are right! Think of the disparity between what an OOS student will need to do in high school versus a VCCS student! This is clearly a move downwards in standards. Very distressing.</p>

[LBP]

<p>Frankly, it’s easier and less stressful for a VA hs student to attend a VCC and transfer than to initially get accepted to UVA as a hs senior. In my opinion, this the best way for good students who just can’t muster the high scores and the stellar hs grades to attend UVA. And, yes, this has created some controversy among VA students and residents…And UVA, being a Commonwealth institution, does have to cater to its taxpayers…If OOS as well as IS students feel that the standards are declining at UVA - well, there are other fine schools for top students to consider.</p>