Do take a peek at the “new” will! The old will is likely no longer a valid will. But do not automatically assume that the old will is useless. If there is any issue with the validity of the new will, the old document could come in handy. A lawyer can advise you on this.
BTW, do not assume anything about joint accounts - they could be set up as POD, JTWROS, or simply have the other person as an authorized user with no survivors’ rights.
My guess is mom is just an authorized user of the credit card accounts, as many of these are over 50 years old. Unless they can show me she signed the contract, I do not believe she will be responsible for the balance. I do need to make sure mom gets the utility bills paid; I am hoping when they are late I can get the late charges removed once I produce the death certificate.
Fingers crossed when I get to his desk, I will find most of what I need. His files are actually in decent order; he just may file differently that I do, so there may be a bit of hunting in my future!
@snowball One more SMALL thing that might save you BIG later: Today, get a bound notebook (lab book, spiral notebook, whatever your favorite notebook style is) and record everything as you go through this process. I used a lab notebook, and used the 2 center pages to record names, institutions, contact information, etc. I still refer to this today.
As you go through things (the desk?) date and make comments, record institutions and contact information. Consider whether you want to document account numbers. As you make decisions, date and note them as well. [Not to say you can’t/won’t change them, but having a written record helped me follow my train of thought at the time.] As you contact financial institutions, record when you called, who you talked to, what they said, when/if you need to call back, etc. I found that I “met” a lot of new people and it was very helpful to me to have notes on the conversation to reflect back on for the next time we talked. I even recorded ages of children of some of the bank contacts I made. It really helped me to be a “person” to them when I called back.
3 years later, I’m still using this. And it has saved my sanity more than once.
I really depends on the debt as to whether your mother has any liability and whether your father had any assets that need to go through probate. Don’t assume your mother has to pay.
When my father died last year I took over the financial part. I also took over his cell phone and most everything came though his emails on the phone. I started making lists of the creditors as they emailed or called (and there were lots of them!) My father had a will but no assets so we did not file probate. We went to the bank (credit union) where my mother was listed on 3 of the 4 accounts.
1)We immediately froze or closed the accounts. The credit card and loan were paid and closed.
We went to SSA and had his payment, which was slightly more than hers, transferred to her. She received the payment for the month before (Sept.; he died in Oct). It was pretty easy. HOWEVER, several places wanted the certificate of death, the original SS card, their marriage certificate. SSA waived this but only because my mother had received benefits under his number when she turned 65; she then continued working and claimed under her own account, then on his death took his monthly amount. So start a file with documents (certificates, cards, titles, insurance policies) and take that along with you.
I talked to the debt collectors. My mother wasn’t listed on any of those accounts so she wasn’t responsible. Most just discharged the amounts owed. I continued to get calls for a few months and statements, but nothing more than that. USAA offered grief counseling to my mother and siblings.
My father had no assets so this worked for us. If your father had assets, you may have to file probate and let creditors file claims. My father also had listed my mother as beneficiary on his insurance policies so they were paid directly to her. If your father has any policies that pay to the estate, you’ll have to file a probate case. You’d also have to do that if any assets are titled in his name that don’t transfer automatically (home, car, boat). We didn’t have that.
I also found many old insurance policies. Worthless.
Some creditors wouldn’t speak to me because I wasn’t officially the probate representative. I told them I was their only hope of getting info about the accounts, but they wouldn’t talk. Their problem.
So start by making lists. Cancel all the things you can like newspaper subscriptions (if your mother doesn’t want them). We had things like Sirus radio, online newspapers and magazines, a few automatic payments but since the bank account had been closed those automatically stopped. We couldn’t closed the accounts my mother wasn’t listed on but the bank froze them and when we got the death certificate, those were officially closed (there was nothing in them). Write down the names and numbers of who you talk to at each bank, company, insurer.
Oh, we also got lots and lots of medical bills (about $500k). My mother wasn’t liable on any of those. I helped any medical creditor file the claims with the correct insurer (medicare and the supplemental one) but that was all; she wasn’t paying any of them. Some were very nice and I was happy to help them get paid but just wasn’t willing to pay the bills.
Good luck. Take your time. Don’t let anyone bully your mother into paying a bill she might not be liable for.
We were lucky in that my parents were old-school and got all their statements etc by snail mail. My brother the executor would get the mail and send them to me. I would figure out what to do with each and send them back to my brother for signature etc. There was a learning curve. We missed one life insurance policy but the company tracked us down several years later and sent a check for a considerable amount of money. I was impressed.
Who is the executor? Some financial things can only be done by the executor.
When each of my parents died, my sister and I were executors (they were divorced, which is why neither was the other’s executor). For most financial changes (like closing accounts), a death certificate was necessary. For some, both a death certificate and the document that showed I was one of the executors were necessary. For a few, the death certificate, the document showing who the executors were, and both my signature and my sister’s were necessary.
If you’re not the executor, there will be things you cannot do.
When the first parent died, in our cases, the accounts were either already joint or living trust, so nothing big happened. When the second in law died, I don’t recall the exact details, but I know I was talking to a rep (bank, mutual finds, auto/home insurance) about what would happen when a 90 something person died, getting all sorts of questions answered and never told her he was dead until we had lined everything up properly and once I informed her of his death she said she was glad I had not mentioned it previously as she could not have answered all those simple easy questions. When the final parent dies, I will not mention ‘death’ until I have my questions answered.
In our area, death certificates were pricey enough that we only got a few for the in laws and asked for the copy back from insurance companies, banks, etc.
I love the notebook ideas mentioned above, I may start that now with my final parent who is failing. Even though I did most of the set ups for my folks when they moved to my town, it still took a long time, nearly a year, to finish with stuff that had to be done as related to Dad’s death. I say relax, try not to stress an urgency, just chip away at it and get it done without making yourself crazy.
For the in laws there was a home to sell so we were not able to do a final tax return and close the estate until 6-8 months after the last death.
I know, technically, it is wrong, but I, personally, have no issue with logging in and figuring out account details. Yes, it is technical fraud since the person is dead, but it is not like you are committing fraudulent acts and taking the money, so who is going to report you? Who is going to complain? The year my Dad died was so tough, I would take anything that makes me job easier.
Also, once the final parent dies, if you are trustee or executor, you will be needing to give a report to the beneficiaries, that notebooks will be a great help for that. Bogleheads forum is very helpful, too.
My condolences on your loss. You’ve gotten lots of good advice about the death certificates and finances. But…
Your mother is an ADULT and she had a long relationship with your father, a relationship that you undoubtedly know far less about than you think, and which you need to RESPECT. In my opinion you have absolutely no right whatsoever to open the letter, much less to withhold it from her. It simply is none of your business. I am truly appalled that anyone would suggest otherwise.
Those steps, @somemom, are necessary if there is probate or titled assets to transfer. My father had nothing but debt, and he had listed a beneficiary on each insurance policy (a miracle) so no probate. We were so lucky.
I’m now encouraging my mother to get all bank accounts organized with a ‘pay on death’. We’re trying to figure out a way to have the titles to the cars transfer (maybe just have her sign them now?). It would be great to not have to probate her estate either.
@snowball has to figure out what she has right now. Collect documents and make lists of bills and assets.
If two people are executors, consider the pros and cons of one of you resigning in favor of the other.
My sister and I were co-executors on three estates where we were the only beneficiaries (our mom’s, our dad’s, and the estate of an unmarried aunt). You might think that having two executors would be a good thing because we could split up the work, but in fact it was a pain in the backside because we live on opposite sides of the country, and so many documents had to be approved and signed by both of us. If we had it to do over, we would do it differently.
I think at the time we were both names, I was a young adult with a brother with issues. My parents didn’t want me to get into a battle with my bother over what he was due. Now that there is no money, it doesn’t really matter. My uncle is a retired actuary for a large insurance company and has the knowledge to deal with insurance. I work in the medical field and deal with health insurance every day and hate it!!
Mom doesn’t think they have newer wills, but will check the safety deposit box. This is just a reminder to myself to be better with our accounts and documentation for the future. My husband’s bother is our executor, that said, we also have not updated our will since the kids were little. I should add that to our to do list.
As I sit here with my mother, she is talking to my aunt on the phone, complaining that the second bedroom is not put back together and how can she have friends come over. We moved the bed and side chairs out so that hospice could bring in the hospital bed and equipment. It is in my aunt’s basement 10 minutes away, and will take my husband, someone else and a truck to bring it back. I am sure this isn’t totally about the guest bedroom, but it is interesting that this is what is upsetting her. She said we should have done this while the grandson’s were in town; I guess we were suppose to do this between the funeral and Shiva? 
@snowball I want to apologize if I sounded harsh in my earlier post. I’m sure that’s the last thing you need right now.
I am so sorry for your loss.
One thing, if there was a notice in the paper re your father’s death, the safe deposit box may already be sealed. I went into my mom’s box the day she died to make sure nothing of importance was in there. H did the same with his parent’s box.
All of my in-law’s joint bank accounts were frozen and MIL needed new ones opened solely in her name. SIL is also doing things with their CDs and savings bonds, even though they, too, were jointly held.
My mom’s acct was simply converted to an estate account.
I’m one who would have my H peek at the letter. Sometimes things are written (and forgotten) that would cause untold amounts of hurt and if it could be avoided, I’d do it.
You know your parents best, and your decision will be the right one.
We have been wading in this swamp for a number of years.
My folks put a living trust into place in 1990. They updated it once on their own accord.
It’s been a 15+ process. DH took over managing their properties. It wasn’t in one fell swoop, overnight, it happened in some simple, and some painful steps. I started paying attention to their varied investment and bank accounts. Started a master file.
A couple of years before dad passed DH and I had them do a restatement of their trust. This was followed by a trip (literal or virtual) to each and every bank and investment company with whom they had a relationship. We turned in 40+ old stock certificates (oh my, those were works of art) and converted them to stock holding in the portfolio. We had myself and my sister put on each of their accounts as authorized signers. We found that one institution – okay, it was Wells Fargo – had somehow lost or dropped their accounts out of the name of the trust. Something about – they used to be Crocker Bank, but then they became First Interstate Bank and then they merged with Wells. Yes, the accounts had that long of a history.
I found an account statement in their mail from a well-known investment company but had no idea this existed. It listed an ‘advisor’. It took several attempts to get the ‘advisor’ to respond. He was rather snippy when I said dad wanted to close the account and transfer to another – well known – investment company. I was told ‘I am your father’s personal advisor’. My response, oh, hmmmm…when is the last time you issued a trade or balance the portfolio – either on your own volition or at the request of my dad. Silence, it had been YEARS.
The saga continued for a while but eventually it was all in place. When dad died -2014- doing the trust split was a PITA.
Some institutions were a dream, others were a SNL skit. The IRS – twilight zone. (no, you can’t speak to dad he is DEAD, he is an EX person, he is not simplly stunned.).
Mom is now deep in dementia. Here is what we have learned
• While they are still functional insist on a review, and if needed – restatement – of any trust or wills.
• Try to find all the investment and bank accounts. Consolidate if sensible and possible
• Get at least one family member to be an authorized signature authority on each account
• Get to know their banker. Make that person your friend
• Set up online access to those accounts (yes, impersonate them).
• Get online access to their social security, medicare accounts
• Get online access to their medical records.
• Make sure you have medical power of attorney
•A DPOA is not a DPOA. Different institutions will still require their own paperwork
• Make a master file. Record the account #, URL, password, contact, expiration date (credit cards),
• Get on their safe deposit box signature card. Make sure you know where their – and the spare – keys reside. Keep the spare keys if possible
•. Keep their original trust documents, wills etc in YOUR safe deposit box. The last thing you want is to be locked out of the important info when you need it.
• Better yet, empty their safe deposit box and put the stuff it into one that is in your/sibblings names.
• Depending on their holdings – keep up with estate laws, both local, State and Federal.
• When (if) their cognitive abilities decline, have all their bills mailed to your address.
•. When dealing with State and Federal tax agencies – lie. Sorry, pretend you are them on the phone – otherwise you will wind up on the planet crazy. If your parent can not sensibly speak to a tax representative don’t get into a position where an agent states ‘you must put them on the phone to give permission’. It’s not a pretty thing.
• Get to know their medical providers. If at all possible, accompany them to some appointments so the providers get to know you and understand you have your parents’ best interest in mind.
• Find out if they are hiding valuables. You don’t want to be the one who sells the 1952 Magnavox stereo console only to read about the guy who found gold bars, cash and diamonds hidden in fake floor of the record storage area.
• Their trust, and mom’s subsequent survivor trust has a clause which says if the trustee becomes unable to act in their own interest the successor trustees become the acting trustees. Thank goodness. A letter from the appropriate medical professional stating mom’s incapacitation allowed my sister and I to be appointed as trustees.
I’m blessed. All the above assumes a high level of trust, respect and fiduciary responsibility exists between and among those with vested interest. I have one sister, we work relatively well together.
Your first step is to find the most current will. There is going to be a legal process in your state to file the will. Then the named executor will have access to all of his accounts, etc. Usually you have to provide a death certificate and documentation (like testamentary letter) to each financial services company for that access.
I agree with those who say consulting an attorney is a good idea. My estate attorney was invaluable.
Regarding the letter, I would not read it or allow your husband to. That is between him and your mom. If he wanted you to read it, he’d have addressed it to you.
The OP’s situation is one reason why, although I pay my bills online, I still get the bills in the regular mail. I caution everyone not to go paperless unless you have someone you can trust with your passwords. Since my bills come by mail, if I pass, H will get them and be able to figure out what to do.
@snowball, so sorry about your dad. My dad is 90 and my mom is 88, so I am reading many of these posts in anticipation of what I have to look forward to some day.
Back in 2014, I had all my parent’s mail changed to my address bc I took over the checkbook when mom started struggling with it and dad has bad vision. I’m on their bank account, MPOA, DPOA and executor for when they pass. I set up their utilities and their one credit card for auto pay and I still get a paper bill to review before I register the auto pay in the checkbook. Makes life a bit easier to not have to worry about writing out checks or bills being late or lost in the mail. There’s still more I could do, though, after reading many of these great suggestions.
Everything @dietz199 says. Whether parents like it or not, at some point you have to “become them” if dementia even hints. I did everything according to the book, but some institutions refused to acknowledge the notarized documents and insisted their own POAs had to be executed. “Just bring your Dad in, we’ll take care of it”. Dad cannot even dress himself and you want me to drag him out of his familiar surroundings to your office?? That is when you have to resort to logging in as him to get things done.
Wells Fargo and Fidelity Investments are the worst. Fidelity locked his IRA, even though I had their specific doc notarized. I could see the account online but I had no access to statements or annual mandatory withdrawal amounts. I had to call in, go through voice pattern recognition to make withdrawals and then they had to get approval and it took at least a week. It was nuts.
Good to know, CB. We are moving every penny out of Fidelity as fast as we can!
Hugs to all who have to deal with this crazy stuff in addition to grieving. Hugs!
@dietz199, great post. Do you mind if I copy and paste it into the thread I started yesterday on “Action Items as Your Parents Age”?