Talk me down please... "geometry for dummies"

Parents Forum
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<p>So…my son is in “Honors Geometry” in 8th grade. He won’t take geometry again. This is his chance to learn geometry, which in my thinking includes deductive reasoning, and writing (or at least studying) proofs, etc.</p>

<p>Strike 1 - the book his class is using is the most dummied down thing I’ve ever seen in a text book. The book doesn’t even show proofs let alone ask students to write them. It’s opening chapter teaches inductive reasoning, and then the book uses that to teach. So the section on, say, alternate interior angles approaches it this way: Draw two parallel lines. Draw a transversal. Measure the two alternate interior angles with your protractor. What do you notice? Complete this conjecture: The alternate interior angles created when a transversal intersects two parallel lines are ______________. in other words, if they seem equal when you draw it by hand, then consider it true. ugh.</p>

<p>Strike 2 - The book introduces a topic and has a handful of very simple problems to complete. I have two geometry books - one from the library and one I purchased - and I am taking the time to identify the subject his textbook is covering each day, finding trickier problems in the other books, and having him do them. </p>

<p>Strike 3 - he had a test last week. He got B. So I say, “OK, that’s not bad, but let’s make sure you understand the problems you missed - let’s look at your test.” He says we can’t, because the teacher handed out the test, went over it with the whole class for 15 minutes, and then collected it back, saying they can’t take it home because the teachers use the exact same test year after year, and they don’t want these kids showing it to next year’s kids. When I asked my son to show me what the problem was that he missed, it was very clear he doesn’t understand it. </p>

<p>I am so sick of having to micromanage my kids’ educations. I am just so mad about the lack of quality in this class (and others). And by the way, we are in a fairly affluent suburb in the Midwest, and our schools are constantly telling us that they are the best in the state and one of the best in the country. Uh-huh. </p>

<p>And as an aside, my dad the professor would be rolling over in his grave at the idea of using the same test written by somebody else year after year after year. So tell me - is it common for middle school and high school teachers to use the exact same test each year? Am I overreacting? I’ve emailed the teacher and explained that I would like to see the test in order to review the material with my son that he doesn’t understand. I’ve assured her that I won’t be sharing it with future students. I told my husband that if I get “no” for an answer, I’ve got one more nice, polite reply left in me until I start raising hell.</p>

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<p>Off, topic, but a funny true story about a teacher who used the same test for years:</p>

<p>There was a Trig teacher in my HS who asked the students to calculate the hight of a specific chimney in the city. For years his students passed the measurements and the answer to the younger generations of students. One day there was a student who came up with a different result. He failed the test. The student insisted that his measurements were correct, the parents got involved, and the teacher checked the measurements himself. The student was right - it turned out that the hight of the chimney was increased by 5 feet several years before that incident!..</p>

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<p>Pinot: Not that this will make you feel any better, but I’m convinced that they’ve “changed” geometry since we took it. Neither of my D’s had to go through the step by step proofs that I remember from my days. One of my D’s took regular geometry & the other took honors geometry. They both had the same teacher. She retired right after D2 had her. Also not impressed. And we’re in the top district in our state. </p>

<p>At the risk of sounding like a horrible mom, I never even looked at their work/tests. They’re both humanities kids, the only time I’ve used geometry since I took the class was to figure out how much carpet and paint to buy, and my DH’s family is seriously geometry-challenged. I was happy that they passed.</p>

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<p>RobD - Thanks for the reply. I think it’s too bad if geometry has changed to the point that it is no longer a vehicle for teaching or using logical, step by step thinking. i know I’ve heard that, but I guess I’m still appalled to see it in real life! LOL</p>

<p>And you don’t sound like a horrible mom at all - I don’t/didn’t see my two older boys’ homework, unless they have something they want to show me because it’s cool. In fact, my middle son used this same text book when he was in 8th grade, and i never really looked at it with him. This situation is a little different because my 8th grader is new to traditional school. We are using 8th grade as a year for him to figure out how to do traditional school before he hits high school and has grades that matter. So I’m trying to walk the line between mentoring him and not micromanaging. This math textbook and approach has moved me solidly into what some people would call micromanaging I suppose, but I’m viewing it as a homeschool supplementation. ;)</p>

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<p>Oh, and nngmm - I love your story!!</p>

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<p>I was happy that they passed…I hear ya…</p>

<p>I have experienced what the OP describes; very, very frustrating…especially for a kid who needs to learn what they got wrong so they don’t get it wrong again…</p>

<p>interesting to see what happens with this one…</p>

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<p>PinotNoir - my kids school district has the same policy: tests do not go home, the teacher reviews in class for a few minutes and then takes them back. By the time the kid comes home and somehow miraculously remembers that the teacher even reviewed the test it is long gone from their mind, all they remember is vague stuff. This is because the school district hands out the same tests every year and they do not want kids ‘sharing’ any information. On the geometry note, S2 did geometry last year , warning: you’re in for a ride, the text books are not a big help and in the case of our school district, there was talk that no one wanted to even teach the subject, so the math staff took turns each year so the arduous task will not fall on one! Things definitely changed from when I was a student back then…</p>

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<p>I love your story nngmm! Geometry has definitely changed. I even saved my notebook from HS geometry- the only thing I saved- because I worked so hard on it. We had to write a proof for each theorem, in a particular form. It is the class I credit for teaching me how to organize math problems. I even wrote a note to my HS geometry teacher a few years ago telling him he was the teacher who had the most influence on me in school-college or HS. He was straight out of college in the '70’s, and I found out last year that “he” is now a “she”. Now that I think about it, that was probably an appropriate change.</p>

<p>My son was in Geometry honors last year and did not have to do any of that. He had a tough teacher but I did not think it was nearly as thorough as it used to be. He is planning on taking Geometry AP next year and apparently they do theorem proofs there. I can say that in general, my son was not challenged at all throughout elem. or middle school. He is definitely challenged in HS, but we switched districts to the next town as my older kids went to HS in our town and it was a joke. I also do not get involved in my kids homework unless they ask or are obviously having difficulty. I did basically teach the Math Analysis course to my D and 2 of her friends a few years ago as the teacher was truly an idiot and they would not have passed the class if I had not. Frustrating!</p>

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<p>I hear you loud and clear! I could have written a post very, very similar to the original post, and almost did a few days ago–I was just too busy micromanaging D’s education to have time! I died of laughter when I saw the word “conjecture” because that is exactly what my D had to do in math last week: make “conjectures”. Isn’t math precise and determinable such that conjectures are generally unnecessary? Why not just learn to calculate something properly, rather than guess and hope you’re right? The new philosophy is that kids should “discover math for themselves.” Why reinvent the wheel? Plenty of brilliant people over the age of 12 have spend years forming the field of mathematics. Surely my middle school daughter’s contributions to the subject are not required.</p>

<p>Having lived through this with my older two, I’m here to tell you it was bad then too but seems to have gotten much, much worse. You are absolutely doing the right thing in teaching your son yourself. However, trying to convince the school that their pedagogical methods are flawed is a lost cause. Don’t do it. The teachers have been taught in college and their workshops that this is the enlightened way to instruct the children, and all you will do is tick them off. Been there, done that.</p>

<p>This year I am seeing the same principle also at work in the humanities. The idea seems to be if you ask the children to collect uninformed or underformed notions from their head and write them down on paper, that that is education. The teachers don’t seem to understand that you have to actually fill their heads with knowledge and actual facts first. I am spending hours and hours teaching and re-teaching my D every night just so she can produce an intelligent and accurate essay or whatever the homework is. She is a special education child, so she hasn’t collected as much outside information randomly as my older two had been able to do, so she has almost nothing to draw upon for these speculative assignments. But having spoken to several other parents like us from D’s classes, they have to do the same thing we’re doing. It’s appalling.</p>

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<p>Oh, and to make all of this worse is that the kids have NO textbooks except for math. They watch a lot of videos and read articles, and are supposed to take notes, but these photocopied articles are collected at the end of class to use with the next class. Consequently, I have no references to refer to for home teaching so ascertain what on earth they are supposed to be learning. Thank God for the internet and the public library!</p>

<p>Oh, and we’re seeing the same thing with tests. It’s so obnoxious.</p>

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<p>This is why US is 25th or whatever in math.
We all need to support our kids education by doing what PinotNoir is doing.</p>

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<p>If you don’t do proofs, what do you study for a year of geometry? I would think without proofs it’s at most a couple month class.</p>

<p>I think “conjecture” is okay, as long as you mean it as an unproven “hypothesis”, which you later test rigorously. Emphasis on rigorously. </p>

<p>That’s inductive reasoning and I think it’s okay as far as it goes. IIRC, we learned both the step-by-step deductive proofs, and rigorous inductive proofs back when I took geometry. Although I think inductive proofs may be frowned upon in math. I guess you’d have to ask a mathematician.</p>

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<p>TheGFG - Thank you for this, it made me laugh out loud!</p>

<p>takeitallin - you’ve summed up what I think a kid should get out of geometry very well! </p>

<p>I’m so frustrated by this and the general feeling I get from watching the schools dumbing things down and then acting like parents just don’t understand education.</p>

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<p>FWIW, the drawing and conjecture bit has some benefits - actually observing the results helps some people understand the theorem. With that said, without proving it, the focus is on the calculations and the geometry rather than the proofs (and thus the logical thinking applicable to any math beyond AP Calculus and multivariable calc). If there’s no focus on proofs or at least the logical thinking required to achieve the results in geometry, then there aren’t many points in teaching it at all - some portions of geometry are applicable to higher math, and a few bits will be applicable to everyday life, but the only point would be so students can pass standardized tests like the SATs.</p>

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<p>TheGFG: We still have plenty of textbooks in our districts…I think my D’s backpack weighs more than she does just cause of the AP Euro book.</p>

<p>The other part of the math equation is that there aren’t many inspiring math teachers (at least we haven’t seen more than a handful.) There’s such a bias against math by kids, and when you have teachers that make it even more painful that’s a shame. </p>

<p>I’ll have to ask my D about getting tests back. I’ll look at her grades online, and if she’s written a piece I’ll ask to read it, but otherwise I don’t know. It could be standard practice here too.</p>

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<p>In high school the kids got more books. Part of the problem is that the state-mandated curriculum is broad and keeps changing. There is no one book that covers every mandated topic in middle school science, for example. So the teachers use downloaded worksheets and articles of inconsistent quality and age-appropriateness. In social studies, the books are too expensive to have enough for everyone, so they are for school reference only. And we are in an affluent district with high taxes!</p>

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<p>Math in my daughter’s middle school is dumbed down as well. It is essential for us to augment outside of school. We’ve had good luck in finding algebra materials, but I’m concerned about geometry next year. Does anyone have recommendations for good supplementary materials for geometry?</p>

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<p>I was about to say that I am certain my DD learned deductive geometry with proofs. Then I remembered that she did geometry in 8th grade, the year we homeschooled her - her geometry course was distance learning from JHU-CTY. So I do not know how Fairfax county public schools teach geometry.</p>

<p>Though I am not sure how kids could make it through trig and calc without having learned to do proofs in geometry.</p>

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<p>A great source for supplemental work for Geometry, and all the other high school courses is The Teaching Company. Here is the link to the Geometry course. Both of my kids used this course as a supplement and thought it was great. We then sent it off to a friend in another district whose son used it , too. I highly recommend these courses generally.
[High</a> School Level?Geometry](<a href=“The Great Courses”>The Great Courses)</p>

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Calculus proofs are generally left to an intro analysis course, and trigonometry proofs tend to be vastly different than geometry proofs. I have no doubt that it’s easy to make it through those courses (and multi beyond it) without a proof background. Linear, analysis, and abstract, on the other hand, would be nearly impossible without a formal background in proof techniques.</p>