Talk me down please... "geometry for dummies"

[BCEagle91]

<br>

<p>If a child struggles with proof at the higher level (which the average person does)
having proofs in a geometry class would not have helped. They’re just plain hard.
They do teach a good work ethic, but kids these days have so much more on their
plates than students in the past that I am sure they are picking it up elsewhere.</p>

<br>

<p><a href=“http://www.amazon.com/First-Course-Mathematical-Patrick-Suppes/dp/0486422593/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1286797044&sr=8-1[/url]”>http://www.amazon.com/First-Course-Mathematical-Patrick-Suppes/dp/0486422593/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1286797044&sr=8-1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Previous editions of this book have been used to teach elementary school students and college students formal logic. This might be a better approach as the logic starts out in small steps and the context is generally more familiar. Teaching logic and geometry for the first time at the same time can be confusing because the student is learning two things at the same time and they are quite different.</p>

[sylvan8798]

<p>

@BCEagle91

I would expect someone that has passed precalc to be able to understand
that paragraph. But I wouldn’t expect most that passed Algebra 2 but
have not yet taken precal to understand it.

Yes there are books titled “College Algebra”. The topics are still algebra, trig, and pre-calculus at best. And pre-calculus is still high school level math. The students resorting to these courses once they are in college did not get enough preparation at the high school level (or they are rusty or not confident with their skills). Some schools accept a course of this material as fulfilling their “math requirement” and others don’t.</p>

<p>Think about it. The student who arrives at college prepared for Calculus I must have gotten this material already somewhere. Either that or the material in your hypothetical course is so esoteric or arcane as to be irrelevant to the understanding of any future mathematics the individual may choose to study, since the course isn’t required at the college level as a precursor to any other math course of anyone but the underprepared.</p>

[bovertine]

<p>

Yes there are books titled “College Algebra”.

</p>

<p>There’s also this, from my alma mater-</p>

<p>Graduate
200A-B-C. Algebra (4-4-4)
Group actions, factor groups, polynomial rings, linear algebra, rational and Jordan canonical forms, unitary and Hermitian matrices, Sylow theorems, finitely generated abelian groups, unique factorization, Galois theory, solvability by radicals, Hilbert Basis Theorem, Hilbert Nullstellensatz, Jacobson radical, semisimple Artinian rings. Prerequisite: consent of instructor. </p>

<p>But this is probably not what you’re talking about.</p>

[BCEagle91]

<br>

<p>Yes there are books titled “College Algebra”. The topics are still
algebra, trig, and pre-calculus at best. And pre-calculus is still
high school level math. The students resorting to these courses once
they are in college did not get enough preparation at the high school
level (or they are rusty or not confident with their skills). Some
schools accept a course of this material as fulfilling their “math
requirement” and others don’t.</p>

<br>

<p>I would disagree with you here. In the past, there were college courses
that covered the topics in precalculus.</p>

<p>I am well aware of what some schools take to fulfill various majors and
the requirements between schools varies widely.</p>

<br>

<p>Think about it. The student who arrives at college prepared for
Calculus I must have gotten this material already somewhere. Either
that or the material in your hypothetical course is so esoteric or
arcane as to be irrelevant to the understanding of any future
mathematics the individual may choose to study.</p>

<br>

<p>That’s only if you think that Calculus I is the starting point for
college math. Historically this isn’t true.</p>

[BCEagle91]

<br>

<p>Group actions, factor groups, polynomial rings, linear algebra, rational and Jordan
canonical forms, unitary and Hermitian matrices, Sylow theorems, finitely generated
abelian groups, unique factorization, Galois theory, solvability by radicals, Hilbert Basis
Theorem, Hilbert Nullstellensatz, Jacobson radical, semisimple Artinian rings. </p>

<br>

<p>You really have to watch out for those math courses that start with Elementary…</p>

[sylvan8798]

<p>

@BCEagle91

I would disagree with you here. In the past, there were college courses
that covered the topics in precalculus.</p>

<p>I am well aware of what some schools take to fulfill various majors and
the requirements between schools varies widely.</p>

<p>.
.
.
That’s only if you think that Calculus I is the starting point for
college math. Historically this isn’t true.

What was done in the past isn’t relevant to Kelsmom’s contention that her friend is teaching an Algebra course that is “college level math”. This is not the current practice. At what institution would a student entering today have to take “College Algebra” if they already had algebra 2, trigonometry, and pre-calculus in high school? Any high school which doesn’t offer those subjects is not preparing their students to enter at the expected college level, which is taken to be Calculus I in the current system.</p>

[sylvan8798]

<p>

@bovertine

Graduate
200A-B-C. Algebra (4-4-4)
Group actions, factor groups, polynomial rings, linear algebra, rational and Jordan canonical forms, unitary and Hermitian matrices, Sylow theorems, finitely generated abelian groups, unique factorization, Galois theory, solvability by radicals, Hilbert Basis Theorem, Hilbert Nullstellensatz, Jacobson radical, semisimple Artinian rings. Prerequisite: consent of instructor.</p>

<p>But this is probably not what you’re talking about.

This is commonly called Abstract Algebra or Modern Algebra, and bears no resemblance to high school algebra :(.</p>

[bovertine]

<p>^^^^
Uh, this is copied out of the course catalog. So at this school it’s called Algebra. I’d say it meets the description of “College Level Math”.</p>

<p>I’m scouring my post to see where I mentioned anything about high school Algebra. Maybe you can point it out to me. Like I said, I haven’t read this whole thread so I doubt it’s relevant.</p>

[BCEagle91]

<br>

<p>What was done in the past isn’t relevant to Kelsmom’s contention that her friend is
teaching an Algebra course that is “college level math”. This is not the current practice.</p>

<br>

<p>Can you prove that forall institutions?</p>

<br>

<p>At what institution would a student entering today have to take “College Algebra” if
they already had algebra 2, trigonometry, and pre-calculus in high school?</p>

<br>

<p>They wouldn’t. College Algebra covers material in a pre-calculus course.</p>

<br>

<p>Any high school which doesn’t offer those subjects is not preparing their students
to enter at the expected college level, which is taken to be Calculus I in the current
system.</p>

<br>

<p>Expected college level is defined as?</p>

<p>Are you saying that there are no 4-year engineering programs that will take students in starting with precalc?</p>

[sylvan8798]

<p>

@bovertine

^^^^
Uh, this is copied out of the course catalog. So at this school it’s called Algebra. I’d say it meets the description of “College Level Math”.</p>

<p>I’m scouring my post to see where I mentioned anything about high school Algebra. Maybe you can point it out to me. Like I said, I haven’t read this whole thread so I doubt it’s relevant.

bovertine, for context, a previous poster (post #67) mentioned that a friend who is a professor at a community college was teaching a dual enrollment course at a high school in “college algebra”. She implied that this was a “college level” math course. She wasn’t talking about the kind of Algebra described in the course you listed, which is a totally different topic. And I never said that this totally different topic wasn’t college level math. We are talking about whether what is basically high school algebra is also college level math.</p>

[bovertine]

<p>^^^
ok. I get it now.</p>

[sylvan8798]

<p>

@BCEagle91

They wouldn’t. College Algebra covers material in a pre-calculus course.

Isn’t that what I’ve been saying? How is this different from what I said?</p>

<p>

Are you saying that there are no 4-year engineering programs that will take students in starting with precalc?

No, I’m saying if you have to start with precalc, you are starting with material taught at the high school level. It isn’t some fundamentally new, more advanced, or different stuff.</p>

<p>Why isn’t there an AP Algebra course offered at the high school level which transfers for college math credits? No AP Precalculus either.</p>

[BCEagle91]

<br>

<p>Isn’t that what I’ve been saying? How is this different from what I
said?</p>

<br>

<p>Your point seems to me to be that College Algebra isn’t a
college-level math course.</p>

<br>

<p>No, I’m saying if you have to start with precalc, you are starting
with material taught at the high school level. It isn’t some
fundamentally new, more advanced, or different stuff.</p>

<br>

<p>The same is true of calculus. Or statistics.</p>

<br>

<p>Why isn’t there an AP Algebra course offered at the high school level
which transfers for college math credits?</p>

<br>

<p>The College Board is an organization that seems highly interested in
generating profits for the benefit of their management despite being a
non-profit. What they choose is up to them.</p>

<p>It’s a bit strange to me that one would use the lack of an offering as
proof that another course isn’t college material. Are we to conclude
that Discrete Mathematics isn’t a college course too? There are a few
high-schools that do offer Discrete Mathematics and it’s a pretty
common university course but the AP doesn’t offer it. Should we conclude
that Discrete Mathematics isn’t a college course because the AP doesn’t
offer it?</p>

[sylvan8798]

<p>Ok, you win. College Algebra is a college level math course. Everywhere and anywhere. Sorry kelsmom, I was 100% incorrect. BC is the correct one.</p>

[BCEagle91]

<br>

<p>College Algebra is a college level math course. Everywhere and anywhere.</p>

<br>

<p>Hmmm. You seem to have a problem with universal quantifiers too.</p>

[sylvan8798]

<p>Whatever, BCE.</p>

[ThisCouldBeHeavn]

<p>If the fact that “college algebra” is offered in some colleges is proof that it’s college level material, then wouldn’t any would-be remedial classes offered by colleges actually be college level material too?</p>

<p>Anyway, here’s how the UCLA math department refers to its lowest level class:</p>

<p>

Math 1: Precalculus
The purpose of Math 1 is to give students a strong preparation for taking calculus. Students completing Math 1 are expected to continue in Math 3A or Math 31A. Math 1 does not satisfy the quantitative reasoning requirement for the College of Letters an d Science.</p>

<p>Math 1 covers material that is ordinarily addressed in the high school curriculum. However, this material is not required for admission to the University of California, and for this reason the course is offered for credit at UCLA.

</p>