<p>Well just because something has “support” doesnt mean it has merit. There are surely plenty people who would like their “group” to qualify as a protected class. </p>
<p>Speaking of tatoos, did anyone see this on Jimmy Fallon last night? Thats his head superimposed on someone elses body, but the tatoo on that body is interesting. <a href=“- YouTube”>- YouTube;
<p>Just repeating the two statements in response to assumptions:</p>
<p>Everyone judges.
No one is claiming they don’t judge.</p>
<p>“Saying someone is rash and immature for getting a tattoo is calling them a fool, IMO.” Not necessarily correct. An immature person is just that - immature. A fool is someone who will not grow out of their foolishness, while immature people mature. :)</p>
<p>I would not call everyone who got a tattoo rash and immature. An Olympic qualifier who gets the Olympic Rings on her ankle? Perfectly fine and not immature in my books. The kid who posted about getting a tiny Mickey Mouse ears tattoo in honor of his grandfather? Ok, while it may not be the most conventional way of honoring someone, the kid put a lot of thoughts into the idea and the possible location of the tattoo, so it does not sound rash and immature. MOfWC’s symbols? Absolutely fine - 99.99% of teens would not even know what Monkey is. 
A gigantic generic Ed Hardy-like rose and snake “tramp stamp”… Makes you wonder! A Gucci logo on the shoulder? That’s foolish, IMO. </p>
<p>Evidently there are interesting tattoos and also tattoos of interest:</p>
<p><a href=“Cops: If you tattooed Aaron Hernandez, we want to talk to you – Boston Herald”>http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2014/05/cops_if_you_tattooed_aaron_hernandez_we_want_to_talk_to_you</a></p>
<p>I just went to our local Asian Bistro to get lunch and the delightful young Asian server (movie star good looks) who I see there all the time said, “I didn’t know you have a tattoo! That’s awesome!” I shocked him by laughing out loud. I briefly explained this thread to him.</p>
<p>Everyone judges, there is no doubt about us, we have 6 million years of evolution (sorry, folks, the earth isn’t 6000 years old and man was made <em>poof</em> as in a 3000 year old creation myth) that taught us to look at others and judge, because often being different in nature can mean something that will eat you or do you harm, so ‘different’ does trigger alarms, whether it is something aesthetic, something you have never seen before, a different racial or ethnic group, etc. Transgender women have trouble using restrooms, because some women assume they are men and like their (assumption) of men, assume they must be there to stare at other women and molest them…and most of it is simply seeing someone different and not understanding. </p>
<p>Obviously, that is a bit different than someone with a tattoo or someone who wears the outrageous outfit to a school gathering, but it is driven by the same thing, people see something different and judge. An extreme feminist hiring for a job position might see a young woman wearing a tight fitting suit and heels as a ‘young bimbo’, that same young woman might look at someone who is wearing mannish tailored suits and has short hair and no makeup and think this is some radical idiot who is going to judge me, and both might be surprised by the truth of who the person is.</p>
<p>The real answer to me is that we should be questioning our judgements and ask if they are true. Studies have done things like shown people pictures of ethnic groups, and measured reactions in their brains, and found that with some groups, people relaxed or basically had little reaction, with other groups they showed cringing and such, fight or flight responses, and judgement often boils down to similar factors, like associating tattoos with being low class or criminal or whatever. </p>
<p>Anyone who denies they judge, anyone who says they don’t have these kind of reactions is at the very least fooling themselves. The point of a discussion like this, or even anti discrimination laws, is to fight against those knee jerk reactions and the reason is those reactions hurt everyone. You judge someone of a different race or religion, besides it being illegal, also might cheat yourself out of a hell of an employee or friend. Not hiring an obese person without some reason (for example, that the work involved would be hard for an obese person to do, had physical demands or limitations) related to job performance might lose on on someone who might transform the business, and the problem is not acknowledging we judge and then trying to figure out the difference between appropriate judging and inappropriate.</p>
<p>Put it this way, if you are hiring for a trendy art gallery, tattoos and body piercings are not going to be a big deal. If you are hiring for a store specializing in young people, having tattoos isn’t going to cause a problem. On the other hand, if your customers are older, more conservative people, if you are trying to do business with Orthodox Jews where Tattoos are a violation in their faith, it can be a problem. One of the things about judging is appropriateness, if you look at someone and feel that they might clash with your customers, that can be a legitimate concern, if you won’t hire them because you assume tattoos means flake, immature child, etc, big difference. The woman with the tattoos and the long nails and heels who shows up at a school event dressed like she is going to a nightclub, is to me dressing inappropriately, while I would try not to judge her as being anything, I also would be unhappy as that kind of dress in that context is inappropriate. It is the same way someone who was homophobic asked me how I would feel if two guys were making out in public, deep kissing and such, and shocked him when I said I would be bothered by it; he assumed I was turned off by two men in a PDA, when I told him I am bothered by anyone doing that, that I feel it is non consensually displaying that for other people (course, the irony, if that same guy saw two women making out, he would be ‘that’s hot’). </p>
<p>The challenge is accepting that we judge, and asking if it is appropriate. If judging someone with a tattoo causes that person harm, and the judgement has nothing to do with them as a person, then maybe we should reserve the judgement, the same way that (hopefully) someone would be willing to hire someone who is of another race/religious group/gender, etc. You might feel that a woman shouldn’t be a welder, that it isn’t ‘woman’s work’, but if they have a job record that shows they can do the job, maybe your belief or judgement should be challenged. The prime reason to do this is that kind of conformity time and again has been proven to be not a good thing, if you hire people, for example, who only think and look like you do, you end up with inbred culture like they had at GM or something like it. Take a look at the hot firms, the ones who are changing and revolutionizing things, and you don’t exactly have Goldman Sachs or JP Morgan Chase, firms like Google and Facebook and Tesla and the like have learned that conformity isn’t a good thing (among other things, Google figured out what studies showed 40 years ago, that college GPA basically often means zilch when it comes to work performance and 4.0’s actually have a small negative correlation to work performance). </p>
<p>Put it this way, take a look at where creativity is happening, and in general, it is not in places where you usually associate strong attitudes of judgement towards those that don’t conform. Quite honestly, if someone told me they wouldn’t hire someone because of some characteristic that had nothing to do with job performance, I wouldn’t hire them if I found out in the hiring process and if they worked for me already, I would find ways to work around their biases, because it is always hard to find good help, especially in tech and creative fields, and screening people out because of bias alone works against it, hiring someone because they are clean cut and wear a suit and tie is self defeating. Obviously, there are limits, I don’t know if I would hire someone who is out there like you see in a counter culture magazine, where they have tattoos all over their face and so forth, or has outrageous piercings, if I felt it would hurt the environment I work in, but I also would give it a lot of thought before acting on it, too, because while there is diversity, there also are things that can be disruptive…and yes, that does show I have biases, never denied that, but I also admit that and I try to make decisions based on thought, not gut reaction to the way someone works, and extreme cases like the person who looks like the tattoed lady at the circus, are a lot more difficult than the guy with earrings or the gal with a visible tattoo…</p>
<p>
Sure. Doesn’t mean it is a good thing.</p>
<p>
Are you begging to be judged about something? And why? I would argue that the people you think are begging for judgment are probably the ones who care the absolute least what you think.</p>
<p>
Divorce is a much, much bigger business, but people celebrate milestone anniversaries all the time. No one is arguing that every person with a tattoo is glad they got one. But a lot of other people don’t regret their tattoos at all.</p>
<p>
Is you wearing a new dress license for someone else to be mean to you? If I sneered and made a snide comment about your dress (or passed you over for a job) you would think that was okay?</p>
<p>
Let me try this again:</p>
<p>Judging is something everyone does. That does not make it a good thing. To the extent that you judge someone but do not let it affect your decisions, I don’t care and I doubt anyone else does either. But gossiping, or denying someone opportunities, or otherwise doing harm to someone IS something I care about, and I hope a lot of other people do as well.</p>
<p>And everyone does this a little bit too - judge and them harm someone based on that judgment. But just because everyone does it does not make it a good thing. I am asking that you recognize that and then try to minimize it.</p>
<p>I mentioned this to the forum in general, but I will ask you specifically - do you have a priest, rabbi, minister, imam or other religious or spiritual advisor? Please ask them about this, both in general and specifically:</p>
<p>“Father Bob, I don’t like tattoos and do not think that people should get them. If I see that someone has a tattoo, is that an adequate reason for criticizing them, or denying them a job that they would otherwise be completely able to do?”</p>
<p>I would very much like to here what religions or philosophies embrace a “yes” to that question.</p>
<p>
I am not asking for legal protections for anyone. I am asking for people to be nicer to each other, and treat each other with respect for the choices they have made that do not hurt anyone else.</p>
<p>I know, a radical idea.</p>
<p>Cosmicfish,
You said this:
And now you are talking about people being nice to each other. These are separate issues in my eye. I try to be nice to people, but I admit I find large quantities of body art unattractive. I might find an outfit unattractive or a hairstyle or eyeglasses. They are unattractive to me and I make no apologies for that. In the ideal world, no one should be discriminated against… But if we are going to make a fantasy list of potential groups that would qualify as proteced classes, I’d rank gays above people with body art.</p>
<p>jym626,</p>
<p>In trying to explain the same thing 17 different ways (in the hopes that at least one will make sense to you) I have apparently confused you. Let me try again:</p>
<p>I think that people should refrain from punishing or inflicting harm on others who have not punished or inflicted harm on them. That simple. I don’t care if you think tattoos or an outfit or a hairstyle or eyeglasses are unattractive, I only care about the amount of harm you do to someone based on that feeling. If you walk up to someone and say “I hate your hair” then you are being a jerk, but the amount of actual harm is probably pretty low. If you say “Candidate A is the best qualified, but they have tattoos so I don’t want to hire/promote them even though they will not generally be visible.” then you are doing quite a bit of harm to someone who has done nothing to you other than fail to beautify your world… which is not their responsibility anyway.</p>
<p>
I agree. Let’s work towards that. I don’t know of any non-discrimination limits that would lead one to say “I’m sorry, I would like to not discriminate against you today, tattooed person, but I am not discriminating against gays at the moment, and well, I have to discriminate against someone!”</p>
<p>So just don’t do it. Is it really that hard?</p>
<p>There are tons of things I do not like that other people do but that do no harm to me. So I do nothing about them. And I am fine. Why should I sit there and think “That person is aesthetically displeasing to me, I must punish them!!?”</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>As stated before, I don’t view people who have tattoos as having any kind of character flaw. I usually don’t even notice them. But someone who has their entire chest, both arms, and back completely inked up is IMO covering up something beautiful with a bunch of visual “noise.” The fact that some people might find it attractive is irrelevant to me, and it doesn’t stop me from wondering why anyone WOULD find that attractive. The next person might wonder why anyone would find huge collagen-injected lips attractive, and perhaps the next person would wonder aloud about the attractiveness of heavy eye makeup obscuring a perfectly lovely eye. That’s not the same as advocating discrimination or poor treatment of any of the aforementioned. Was just giving an opinion which was solicited by the OP. Apparently cosmicfish must challenge every opinion which doesn’t meet with his approval.</p>
<p>Cosmicfish, I don’t get why you give a flip what a bunch of anonymous people on an internet forum think, or why you think posting rebuttal after rebuttal after rebuttal is going to change anyone’s mind. You are saying the same things over and over. The people who would judge the character or the insides of someone by virtue of what they do to their body on the outside are not going to be shamed or bullied into thinking otherwise. </p>
<p>
I am doing it because NOT posting rebuttal after rebuttal after rebuttal just leaves them talking to each other and deciding that everyone thinks what they are promoting is okay. I would rather shout into the wind than be quiet.</p>
<p>
As are they.</p>
<p>
I am not trying to bully or shame, I am trying to convince. And I am hoping that in a country where the vast majority claim adherence to some religion, that people would take my advice and talk to their religious leaders about this sort of thing.</p>
<p>I haven’t read the whole thread cosmic fish and it looked like it was getting nasty so didn’t see a need to read all that. But r he honest your response is way over the too. People other than perhaps the westboro baptist church clowns are not going to decide who they are going to harass or discriminate on any given day. </p>
<p>Businesses with a dress code or with a large customer service face to face presence would probably select a clean cut person over another candidate, all else being equal. But of course people should be nice. People are not going to say " your tats make you look like a loser" any more than they are going to say " your dress makes you look like a bag lady"</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Which proves my point. You’re not convincing anyone.</p>
<p>And really, the type of person who would go beyond merely finding tattoos unattractive to the point of discriminating or treating them unkindly or unfairly is NOT the kind of person who is going to go to their pastor, priest, rabbi, or whatnot in order to get clarity about the issue of tattoos, and certainly not at the behest of an internet poster.</p>
<p>
I honestly I have no idea where in my comments it “looked like it was getting nasty” - but I would LIKE to know.</p>
<p>
Which part, specifically?</p>
<p>
They may not go out with the intention of discriminating, but they are going to do so nonetheless. Is it so impossible that people could think about their own actions and words, and what they are doing to other people? Especially when it is a big decision that you are SUPPOSED to be considering in depth?</p>
<p>
Why does an internal dress code need to cover tattoos with non-offensive subject matter? And when is all else ever equal?</p>
<p>
I am more concerned with the people on here who will be absolutely nice as they tell you that you are not being hired to the position for which they know you were the best qualified candidate. I’ve had people tell me that my tats make me look like a loser, but since I am professionally employed, well educated, financially solvent, and happily married, I took it more as a statement on them than as a statement on me.</p>
<p>
No one has to respond to me! I don’t bump threads.</p>
<p>And out of curiosity, why am I the only one being chastised? There are other posters making the same arguments over and over again, why are you not calling them out?</p>
<p>
Perhaps not, but I am hoping that they will think about why they won’t.</p>
<p>There is a big difference between a discrete tattoo, a small tattoo, well done tattoos and the kind that are likely to get a person to be viewed negatively. Just as with clothing, hair and other appearance things. The problem is that with a tattoo in an obvious place like literally on your face, it can be nearly impossible to hide. A sleeve? That’s fine. I could have two sleeves and most of my body done and no one has to know and it could be obscene, vulgar, ugly, controversial–my business. And once someone is hired and is doing well, at many places get up that would be a strike against you during the job hunting process is ignored. I know some places where it just isn’t a good idea to interview in beards or certain hair styles, but there are those already hired sporting the same just fine. When trying to pick an applicant out of many, which is the case with highly desired jobs, certain ideals are taken into account. Would this person know when to tone it down for a client or how to dress in certain situations when he clearly is not doing so at a job interview which often is such situation? It’s often not so much the tattoo itself or anything against the tattooed folks, as it is about the sensitivity the person has for nuances of a situation. </p>
<p>I do wonder what my cousins will do if they ever come to the conclusion that their sleeves are tacky (which I thnk they are as do most people in the family and who I know who have seen them) . They are young yet. They have little money, and yet spent a small fortune on getting that decor on their arms. To remove will cost even more, and it frankly does boggle my mind that those who are so struggling financially should blow their money on those things. It’s so in one’s face, that one has to notice it. Not like going off a spluring on other things where others can suspect but it’s not so obvious. I can tell you that I tightened my pursestrings when it comes to checks to either of them , and my MIL doesn’t want them to get a cent. I think their grandparents may have made adjustment to their wills. Not just for the tattoos but that was the final straw. It was visual permanent evidence of all they suspected and despised. Had they not gotten the tattoos, a little dressing to for respect and kow towing would not have released the rancor that way. it’s just a spit in your face sort of thing. Success in other things in life and everything else in order, maybe they could have gotten away with the tattoos, in fact I’m sure they could have. But it was a tipping point. </p>
<p>Personally, if someone I know and respect, someone I hold high in esteem, trust , does a great job at things, if such a person gets a garish tattoo, though I’d say the same I am saying here, it wouldn’t change much of my perspective on such a person. Yes, it could be a tipping point for someone I"m already dubious about. For someone I don’t know at all, it’s not a favorable thing.</p>
<p>I went to the grocery store this afternoon and was reminded of this thread. There was a guy there with his 2 young girls . . . shaved head and goatee look, tattoo sleeves on both arms, stuff running up the back of his head, some on face and various things all over his neck including the neck beard location and the piece de resistance - a giant, evil leprechaun on the side of his neck! They were definitely the kind of tattoos that create impression - although I think he wanted the impression that he was creating.</p>
<p>My workplace used to have a “no visible tattoo” policy but they no longer enforce it. They are fine with those female nape of the neck tattoos to be worn with up-do, and sleeves now. I think they would draw the line at leprechaun neck though. </p>
<p>Cosmicfish-
please read more carefully- I didnt say YOU were getting nasty, I said the thread was getting nasty. I still think your responses are a bit over the top. Chill.</p>
<p>May 21
<strong>Judging on external presentation is done by EVERYONE.
Sure. Doesn’t mean it is a good thing.</strong></p>
<p>Or a bad thing. It’s just a THING. You’re missing the point. You have eyes and a brain and you USE THEM every day just like EVERYONE ELSE. Generally, it’s not good or bad, it just IS.</p>
<p><strong>And c’mon, many of them are things people practically BEG to be judged about.
Are you begging to be judged about something? And why? I would argue that the people you think are begging for judgment are probably the ones who care the absolute least what you think.</strong></p>
<p>I will readily admit that when I go to the effort of getting dressed nicely, I am definitely hoping people take special notice and think positively of me for my wardrobe decision that day. Do I think people will devote hours of thought to my clothes? No. But they will make a first impression. And I can change my outfit. Or my hair.</p>
<p><strong>If this weren’t true, why would tattoo removal be becoming such big business? This fact just shouts regret.
Divorce is a much, much bigger business, but people celebrate milestone anniversaries all the time. No one is arguing that every person with a tattoo is glad they got one. But a lot of other people don’t regret their tattoos at all.</strong></p>
<p>True. And I would add they don’t regret them YET. But the permanence of tattoos is the issue here, not getting them. The permanent, life-long decision is what separates tats (or gauges) from other external choices. And you can’t predict now if you’re going to like yours in 30 years. My SIL with the beautiful butterfly at age 20 liked it for many, many years and HATES it at age 50. </p>
<p><strong>Look, if I wear a great new dress, I am very much hoping I will be judged well, but someone could just as easily judge me negatively for not liking the style, or hey, even for being blond.
Is you wearing a new dress license for someone else to be mean to you? If I sneered and made a snide comment about your dress (or passed you over for a job) you would think that was okay?</strong></p>
<p>Yes. Everyone has license to sneer at anyone they choose. I’m not “mean” to anyone - in fact, I’m pretty darn kind all of the time. I’m just admitting I’m human just like everyone else, and I get first impressions from externals, just like you. Calling them “judgments” makes it sound negative when in fact it just is what we all do. </p>
<p>My choosing to wear what I wear is going to elicit different reactions from different people. Wearing sweats into an upscale shop is going to elicit a bad reaction - stupid on the clerks’ parts, because you never know who will buy, but maybe they’ve had bad experiences with sloppily dressed folks in their stores before. I accept it. Wear the same sweats to WalMart and I fit right in. </p>
<p>**If that’s “judging” so be it, just don’t be hypocritical and think you don’t judge people by external appearances. No one is that perfect. Talk about self-righteous.
Let me try this again:
Judging is something everyone does. That does not make it a good thing. To the extent that you judge someone but do not let it affect your decisions, I don’t care and I doubt anyone else does either. But gossiping, or denying someone opportunities, or otherwise doing harm to someone IS something I care about, and I hope a lot of other people do as well.
And everyone does this a little bit too - judge and them harm someone based on that judgment. But just because everyone does it does not make it a good thing. I am asking that you recognize that and then try to minimize it.
I mentioned this to the forum in general, but I will ask you specifically - do you have a priest, rabbi, minister, imam or other religious or spiritual advisor? Please ask them about this, both in general and specifically:
“Father Bob, I don’t like tattoos and do not think that people should get them. If I see that someone has a tattoo, is that an adequate reason for criticizing them, or denying them a job that they would otherwise be completely able to do?”</p>
<p>I would very much like to here what religions or philosophies embrace a “yes” to that question.**</p>
<p>ANSWER: None. Nor should they. But that is completely obfuscating the point and creating much more than I stated or believe (criticize them, deny them a job). First, I never, ever, ever said people shouldn’t get tattoos! Where did you get that?? Nor did I say I wouldn’t hire them! I just said I make a judgment about their emotional and intellectual state when they got it. Period. It’s just my first impression or thought about a person when I see tattoos and because they’re permanent I don’t like them. You personally felt insulted by that because you have them and you got all defensive. </p>
<p>It’s not personal to you or ANYONE. It just IS what it IS, people judge by externals. Different people judge my dress one way, different groups another. Same with your tattoo. Point is, I can change my dress to the circumstance, my age, what I want to project, etc. Tattoos are unchangeable. Permanent. Life long. </p>
<p>Here is the part you miss me saying (over and over): I don’t care if you get a tattoo. I don’t care what you or anyone else chooses to do, and I’d defend with my life your right to do it. I make a mental judgment about tattoos and tons of other physical choices (others are generally non-permanent) and I don’t “harm” anyone. I hang out with lots of folks with tattoos - I’d hire someone with tattoos. I just think at the time they got them they were being rash, emotional, young, immature. Doesn’t mean they are not worthy human beings. YOU’RE the one making that leap and putting words in people’s mouths. It’s a complete straw man argument. </p>