Teacher Literacy

epiphany · May 12, 2007, 9:50am

Well, again, I did know about her, so I don’t think I have to google her.

I never claimed she was talking about me personally. The title of this thread is “Teacher Literacy.” While the thread actually refers to one incident and a document, it has now expanded (as usual, I’ve noticed) to include how supposedly incompetent “teachers” (generally) are. I’m talking about all the references to the supposedly large number of teachers(?) who cannot teach 3rd & 4th grade math to a mastery level. I’m using myself as an example because I consider my training sufficient & comprehensive, but it is hardly Chinese in origin. They didn’t open a credentialing program just for me. So my question was not a rhetorical one, either. I have to wonder the kinds of training now occurring for elem. level teaching if the concepts behind the procedures are not being taught as essential to the pedagogy. Is this a new style of credentialing program in Massachusetts that I’m unaware of?

Whenever one teaches a system, and certainly both math & science can be called systems, it’s important to reinforce regularly, in the daily teaching, and with student practice, the relationship between the concepts and the procedures. Interestingly, “in my day,” it was equally frustrating for a non-natural-math student such as myself to be taught mostly the concepts, and less often the procedures. So I tended to feel as if I were in a theoretical class in algebra, and then when it came time to do a problem, no one had explained how to apply the theory to the problem.

marite · May 12, 2007, 9:59am

epiphany:

You inserted yourself in a discussion I was having with UCSDdad, where I specifically said I was limiting myself to math-teaching. The issue arose because I wrote about a first grade teacher I supported for tenure despite her lack of spelling ability on the grounds that she was a great math teacher. I had to write a letter to the Superintendent who was inclined not to grant her tenure. Does it sound to you like teacher-bashing?
You can wonder all you want about MA credentialing. CA teachers must do a marvelous job teaching math. So far, however, the example you’ve given is yourself. Sample of one.

conyat · May 12, 2007, 10:11am

At the local HS, my D. had two math teachers back-to-back who were first year, emergency certificate teachers. Both had very strong math backgrounds, but because of the way their fast-track certification program was structured, they were beginning their first education courses as they were teaching. This didn’t work out very well.

I’ve heard some educators call the problem “too smart to teach.” Their grasp of the math was so automatic and intuitive, they had trouble breaking it up into steps so that the kids could learn it.

The Geometry teacher dealt with the problem by never requiring proofs, because he couldn’t teach the kids how to tackle them. He would put one on each test as a bonus; no one did them.

The Algebra II teacher just assigned problems, he didn’t explain things. If the kids asked questions, he had a tendancy to tell them that if they didn’t already know the answer, maybe they didn’t belong in his (gifted) class.

He had other issues with professionalism. The final straw for my D. was when he told a young man who was dyslexic that if he needed the test problems put up on the overhead for him, maybe he belonged in a remedial class. The kids got up a polite letter-writing campaign to the counselor asking that the teacher get some instruction in LD.

Eventually, the Geometry teacher ended up teaching Chemistry, something he doesn’t know as well, but can teach better. The Algebra II teacher got some help from a master teacher and improved a lot, but it was too late to salvage his placement. He ended up leaving the school at the end of the year and I don’t think he’s teaching now at all, which is unfortunate, because I think with the right supports early, he could have been very good.

epiphany · May 12, 2007, 10:54am

I “inserted myeslf into a discussion”? ! Excuse me, I thought this was a public forum, and one doesn’t need a special invitation to weigh in on the discussion. I followed very well where the direction of the thread was going, thank you very much, and it was not limited to the spelling errors of a dean, nor to your support of a teacher who couldn’t spell. From there, it evolved to a discussion of elem. teachers in general supposedly needing instruction from a Chinese educator about how to teach something that was presented as fundamental in my own credentialing program. Hence my questions about how supposedly universal this problem is. Sorry, but I think my questions are valid, my concerns germane to issues others brought up, not me, and I didn’t think I needed an invitation to join a discussion. I have something to say about this. This is my field, thank you. And I’ve not “given you a sample of one.” I’m saying that I have not noticed in CA classrooms and among my peers, plural, a failure to present the lessons in a way which corresponds to sound pedagogy. I’m limiting myself to the very grade levels that you were discussing and that you brought up: 3rd/4th grade.

And yes, the thread did and does sound like teacher-bashing. It did not start this way, no, but it once again has devolved into that. And yes, I will continue to wonder about a credentialing program that may not be intellectually sound (if so), or whose graduates are not being assessed closely enough, if the program itself is sound.

On other threads, I have supported, and will continue to support, the borrowing of any pedagogy from any country that promises to address deficiencies in American approaches to any subject in which our students are quite evidently underperforming those of overseas. I just think that the grade levels & examples spoken of in this thread do not speak to the modern credentialing programs I’m aware of. A reliance or even an emphasis on a procedural approach to mathematics is not something that has been current for the last 30 years in this country, at least on the elementary level. Middle school & above, I think we have discussed on different threads how the continuity is lacking, in the curriculum AND in the pedagogy, too often.

Moving right along…

Conyat, I’m glad you brought this up: the problem of the bright & conceptual mathematician-as-teacher is one that has plagued education for quite some time, and certainly was true in my day as well (as a student). Sometimes a math teacher with a very abstract inclination has trouble explaining himself (him usually) even to peers, let alone to young people. And I think that’s another important issue, btw, in the under-supply of math teachers on the middle & high school levels. A great mathematician is not necessarily a great teacher. As referred to already, some of that is training, but some of that can equally be temperament & preference. (And that’s aside from the salary issues.)

The job is the activity, and the activity is primarily teaching, not primarily doing math with peers, writing about math to peers, or thinking about math by oneself.

Hanna · May 12, 2007, 11:09am

“I’ve heard some educators call the problem “too smart to teach.” Their grasp of the math was so automatic and intuitive, they had trouble breaking it up into steps so that the kids could learn it.”

Yup. People who are naturally gifted at a particular task are often the worst teachers. They have no idea how to learn to do it; they were born knowing how. It’s not a coincidence that Michael Jordan was such a rotten basketball coach.

marite · May 12, 2007, 11:15am

You accused me of teacher-bashing when I tried to give an example to someone else of why one would wish to support someone with less than stellar spelling if that person was good at nurturing math learning.

I also tried to explain to UCSD-dad that teaching elementary math is not as easy as it sounds, using one work, by Liping Ma that has been universally praised. I am not advocating adopting foreign teaching methods because they’re foreign (am I also being accused of US-bashing?). I am advocating using methods that work and that have the endorsement of math teachers all the way from university profs to teachers in the trenches.

This exchange grows extremely tedious. Good bye.

ucsd_ucla_dad · May 12, 2007, 4:45pm

There are no doubt some teachers who can handle teaching English well but not math and vice-versa. However, I think there are also many who can teach both well - especially at the lower levels. I agree that knowing how to do something and teaching it are two different things. I just don’t think the concepts in the lower-level math area are that difficult.

Generally, at the first grade level, there’s one teacher who covers all subjects. It’s essential that they have adequate English and written skills as well as a good ability to teach math.

Marite, I think it’s unfortunate that at the school you’re referring to the parents and kids had to settle for a compromise (and I know that’s not a lone case). For a number of the kids the lack of written skills on the part of the teacher may have been compensated by fully capable parents such as you who made up the difference. I hope all the parents were able to at this critical learning level for the kids.

In the area I live in the schools are filled with ESL kids and worse, with parents who speak no English at all, who likely had a very low educational level themselves, and who take a hands-off approach to education. If these kids aren’t exposed to and held accountable for the appropriate level of English language (and math) in the first few grades they’ll likely have major issues with it for the rest of their lives.

Maybe it’s time to re-examine the training required for the current entry-level teachers and review what they’re actually being taught (and held accountable for) in the areas of English, written skills, and math teaching techniques/ability. I do think that when teachers are discovered to be lacking in any of these basic areas perhaps they’re in the wrong career field and the education system should ask itself how that teacher was able to progress so far with limited abilities.

Maybe I haven’t given enough credit to some of my kids’ teachers who possessed what I thought was a base level of competence.

marite · May 12, 2007, 5:18pm

I’ve come to realize that good spelling is to a certain extent innate. Both my husband and I are not native English speakers; but he continues to commit howlers while I am pretty good at spelling in several languages. Yet, my husband once took me aback by announcing that, in his hi-tech company, he was considered good at writing!Thankfully, my kids are pretty good spellers (they both had the spelling-challenged teacher). As for the teacher, she is still teaching and is much beloved of students and parents. I’d have been more concerned if she’d been teaching higher grades, when proper spelling and good grammar become more important.

The issues you raise, however, show why elementary teachers are chosen largely for their ELA skills rather than their math abilities. The 5th grade teacher who knew less math than my S had an advanced degree in English and was/is an absolutely terrific teacher of social studies and humanities. After my S graduated, another teacher was added to the 5/6 team; he happened to be excellent at teaching math (as well as having a Ph.D. in education). He replaced an engineering graduate from MIT who was full of enthusiasm for teaching but had not got a clue on how to go about it. She burnt out after a couple of years.

paying3tuitions · May 12, 2007, 6:20pm

I’m glad the topic has returned to spelling, and that Marite who does all KINDS of good acts all over CC for students has recovered her usual grace and aplomb.

To celebrate and bring the mood up a bit on the thread, I reread Mini, who quipped on post #49:

“I get paid quite well, thank you, for handling written communications. If everyone spelt and grandmard well, I’d be out of a job.”

In Buffalo (which never had buffalo but is renamed from the mispronounced
“beau fleuve” for a nearby river…)

we are enjoying some wins by our hockey team, the Sabres. A local story today bore this headline: “Misspelling is a good reason to question authenticity of an article.”

Curious, I learned that businesses are being chided by the National Hockey League and Sabres front office for producing unauthorized team souvenirs.

One way to know it’s a fake is by the misspellings, for example, an internet seller of thong underwear with the name and photo of handsome announcer Rick Jeanneret, whose photo and name misspelled as Jeanerrete appear on the thong. The hawk-eyed NHL also “confiscated more than a few Sabres items labeled ‘Sabers’ .”

So, Mini – keep it in mind, it could be a sideline business for you

zoosermom · May 14, 2007, 9:37am

“He’s a dean, NOT a teacher”
All a dean is here is a teacher who handles some discipline issues. He absolutely is a teacher.

Teacher Literacy

CONNECT WITH US