<p>Allow me to point something out here. A public school teacher in NJ works 180 days per year. A new college grad working in the private sector will work 240 days a year. Public school teachers do not pay Social Security tax of 7 1/2%. Taken together that adds up to the equivalent of $72K with a extensive package of non-contributory benefits. What other new grad gets anything close to this? </p>
<p>The teacher’s union in New Jersey is very powerful and they spend allot on PR.</p>
<p>I would only want to be a teacher at the kind of school where the kids stand at attention when the teacher walks into the room and say “good morning Miss Muffy” and sit down when she gives a signal and totally respect everything the teacher does and their parents support the teacher in every way…but that’s not what schools are like…it would take a LOT of money, about $50,000… for me to want to be a teacher!</p>
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<p>A lot of people go into teaching not just for the love of it but because they see the achievement gap in our current society as a social justice challenge that is akin to the Civil Rights Movement. But I would ask why we expect teachers to go into it for the love of it? Why do they have to be saints? If they are people who could have earned three times as much doing something else, they are subsidizing our lack of willingness to value them and their work. I’m not saying that all fields should pay equally, just that I certainly don’t think a $50,000 a year starting salary for a demanding and valuable job that requires four or five years of higher education is out of line. We got by in this society for years because bright women went into teaching when there were few other opportunities for them. Their lack of opportunity subsidized our educational system. Now, we need to find ways to pay good teachers what they’re worth.</p>
<p>BTW, my D does not make $50,000 a year. She is making in the $40s, and less than she was making working for a small business after college – a job that paid good benefits, did not require any advanced degree, and which was less stressful than teaching a roomful of six year olds – half of whom are ESL learners – ever will be.</p>
<p>Sac, I did not mean to imply that anyone should take up a career for the love of it. Which student even knows what they may love when entering college. All I was trying to say there, was that many very bright students who could probably have earned a lot more with their smarts/talents chose to teach.</p>
<p>But, there are people that go into teaching, who have no interest in it, even dislike it, and certainly don’t seem to care about the value of teachers in society, nor the huge impact they can make on a child.</p>
<p>I have agreed in every post, that we need to pay good money to attract good teachers.</p>
<p>Where we live (south-large public urban/suburban consolidated district), starting teachers’ salaries are much less. Our high school has a hard time keeping good experienced teachers. A huge percentage of the teachers are less than 5 years removed from college. Violence or threat of, is virtually an everyday occurrance Teachers deserve every penny they get and more for what they have to deal with on a daily basis. In our area, it’s not a profession you would enter for the great paycheck.</p>
<p>There were always bad teachers who had no interest in it and disliked it and were so rotten to kids that they caused permanent damage, regardless whether their pay was high or low. I think most of us can remember having some teachers like that.</p>
<p>Opie, I very much have an idea. My wife is also a teacher - a damned good one. She teaches in one of the poorest school districts in the state. Every night I hear about the challenges that must be overcome to provide an education to these kids. I hear the heartrending stories of child abuse and drugs. I hear about the kid who comes to school and opens her book bag only to have the cockroaches that infest the house come swarming out into the classroom. I hear about the kids who live with their grandmother because the mother is in jail and the father is nowhere to be found, or the kid whose mother doesn’t want anything to do with her child and says, “if you want to discuss something about my kid, take it up with the Reverend” (and this is about a 4th grader). </p>
<p>But I also hear the success stories as some of these kids are finally reached and the light bulb finally comes on after years of being passed up from grade to grade. I hear about the beaming smiles of pride when they earn their first “B” in math after years of "F"s. I hear about the kids who, after having been treated with the most severe form of “tough love”, come back the following year to thank my wife for what she did for them. </p>
<p>I heard George Bush refer to this situation in our inner-city schools as the “soft bigotry of low expectations” but thought that it was just a campaign slogan. Now I know it is real - you could not get a more dead-on description of what goes on in such a school.</p>
<p>Yes, teachers like my wife (and probably yours) deserve much more than what they pay her. Unfortunately, for every teacher like her, there are two or three who just don’t care. They have their tenure and while perhaps at one time they had a desire to teach, they now just show up (sometime). I hear about the teacher who is on drugs daily, refuses to take a drug test, has to be physically removed from the school by the police and sent to jail for a couple of weeks who is now back in the classroom. I hear about teachers who file grievanaces against the principal because she wants her to do lesson plans - and then goes on medical leave because of the “stress” that she is under because of the principal. I hear the union president berating any teacher that tries to do more than the minimum amount of work.</p>
<p>So, yeah, give your wife and mine a raise … but get that money from the piles of deadwood that are marking time in these schools. I found it interesting in last night’s Democratic debates that when this issue was raised, none of the candidates were brave enough to stand up to the teacher’s union and call for merit pay … yet they are the ones who claim to be “all about the children”. Hogwash.</p>
<p>Well, I think it was Biden who said his wife is a teacher and has credentials to show that she has improved her teaching. I don’t really agree with him. An extra piece of paper does not necessarily mean they should get merit pay. I know a couple of PhDs who should earn less based on their lousy ability to teach and disinterest in teaching, than the ambitious teacher without a PhD who puts so much effort into the classroom. The problem was brought up during the debate as to who will judge and how would one judge who should get merit pay. Also, it was said that the teacher who works hard in a district with low test scores should not be out of the running for merit pay.</p>
<p>toblin- teachers in NJ pay social security tax- they also pay at least 5% of their pay for their pension and the teachers I know contribute to medical coverage</p>
<p>It seems that there are two issues at play here: the fact that starting teachers in an area of NJ can earn $50,000/year, and the fact that some teachers are ‘bad apples’. Why some are conflating the two is beyond me. No one is disputing that there may be bad apples within any particular school board, but does that mean that no teacher may be worth what they’re being paid? Everyone would like to be rid of the ‘bad apples’, including the good teachers, maybe most of ALL the good teachers! </p>
<p>Regarding the comparison between starting salaries for teachers vs. lawyers. We’re not talking about averages here, so if we’re talking about a first year teacher in the Ridgewood school district and a first year lawyer at Simpson Thacher, it’s going to be $50,000 vs. $200,000. No comparison, especially when you take into account earning potential.</p>
<p>sac, I’m sorry to get your blood boiling. I did not mean to be derogatory towards teachers. In fact, if you see the rest of my post you will see I think that teachers do an important job and that I feel they should be paid well. </p>
<p>I am glad your daugher is working hard in her job and is ambitious about doing a great job. I was referring to ambition in the sense of wanting to make loads of money real fast (remember this thread is about the pay that teachers make).</p>
<p>All I’m saying is that teaching is a nice career choice that is reasonably compensated (in NJ, @$50K) if you look at the total picture- educational requirement, hours worked per year, stress level, benefits, job security, etc etc. </p>
<p>But if you are financially ambitious (e.g, you want to make $200K or more at some point in your lifetime), then you may want to pursue some other career.</p>
<p>I am not saying that I recommend one option or the other. I know there is more to life than money, but this particular thread is about money.</p>
<p>If your blood is still simmering at this, then I’m sorry again.</p>
<p>Just another thought about teacher vs. lawyer. You can compare many different professions and find that income cannot be compared. Keep in mind that law school involves grad school with a large tuition bill for that degree. A teacher can begin teaching with an undergraduate degree and can often get a master’s degree (not talking about Columbia, but school districts don’t pay more for Columbia vs. Podunk State U) paid for by their school district. Also, one can get the master’s while working full time. I know of several teachers who went to their local high schools at night because some state schools will send the professors out to our local high schools, so the teacher does not actually need to set foot on a college campus.</p>
<p>“works 180 days per year”</p>
<p>again you have no idea… those are class days infront of students. Is a lawyer only a lawyer infront of clients, is a doctor only a doctor when they are in front of a patient? is a fireman only a fireman during a fire??</p>
<p>“The difference is, you can choose your doctors/lawyers/ etc.”
a talk with the prinicipal usually does the trick if you have a valid reason.</p>
<p>“first year teacher is very stressed out, because everything is new” </p>
<p>ehmm? most teachers experienced as well are stressed, why? stuff like comments here, in the paper and so on… the dynamic changes constantly in education, it NEVER stays the same as long as there’s a consultant out there to make a buck and a school board who’ll swallow anything… or new mandates? Or people who eye experienced teachers NO MATTER HOW GOOD as expendable because of budgets. Stress never goes away it just goes up and down year after year… </p>
<p>“I did not mean to imply that anyone should take up a career for the love of it”
What you should understand is people who go into teaching as well as nursing (another pooped on profession wage wise) tend to be empathic people. They do care about what they do and they do feel the cuts as personal, even when directed at somebody else. </p>
<p>Because quite frankly EVERY GREAT TEACHER HAS HUNDREDS WHO THINK THEY ARE THE WORST TEACHER IN THE WORLD… Two kids sit next to each other in a classroom. One gets an A the other a D, guess what the opinions of the teacher are? </p>
<p>My wife considered by many to be an excellent educator feels it when some parent decides she is a poor teacher because her little “johnny” had to sit in for recess or is doing poor work… It must be her fault, so I am pulling my kid and going to a new school (just like she did the last four years…true story) where my child is treated with the “respect” he deserves… that still hurts even though it’s pretty obvious who the problem is that situation…</p>
<p>Then there are notes on her door this summer from a kid getting his phd, left there when he took his new wife for a walk by his old elementary school and saw her name on her class door. He wrote a wonderful letter updating her on his life and thanking her for 3rd grade and how he still remembers her and hopes she still is teaching when his kids go there…</p>
<p>Then there is the pour over of the paper to see how her students are doing in everything from college honor rolls, homecoming court and arrest reports.</p>
<p>Again some of you have no idea… yes, without question there are poor teachers, but please be aware when you “shotgun” teachers, your buckshot hits the good ones too and it still stings. Just remember every great teacher your kids had along the way will have somebody out there saying just awful things about them somewhere else…</p>
<p>I should mention that some districts use starting pay to skim the cream- those they feel will be the best teachers- the pay in those districts lags many districts later on. A teacher in Woodbridge NJ earns more after about 15 years when compared to a teacher in Westfield with over 20 years. So you may start higher in Westfield but ultimately earn less for your full career. I guess Westfield assumes once you are in the District you will not leave.</p>
<p>“The problem was brought up during the debate as to who will judge and how would one judge who should get merit pay. Also, it was said that the teacher who works hard in a district with low test scores should not be out of the running for merit pay.”</p>
<p>The first thing that needs to be dropped is any idea of quantitative salary calcualtions based on scores. How are people judged in private industry? For the most part it is all subjective. That’s what managers (principals) are paid to do. A principal knows (or should know) who the best teachers are. Is it always fair? Of course not. Do some play favorites? Of course they do. But, if teachers want to continue to use private industry as their benchmark for poor pay, they should be willing to put up with the inequities that are common in private industry. They should also be willing to give up the lock on their job in the form of tenure which creates a very enticing environment for bad apples to decay.</p>
<p>northeastmom, if you were referring to my post, I was commenting in reply to sac’s query involving the differential in the amount of salary of the two professions today vs. what it was in the 70’s. Back then, apparently it was a few thousand dollars, and as you can see today, in the example I gave anyway, it is much, much larger. This has nothing to do with years of education or the cost of tuition.</p>
<p>I would also ask how would you formulate a merit pay plan for teachers and if you got rid of tenure how would you protect against corrupt politcos. By the way if the principal does their job you can fire teachers - there is a process and it takes time but it can be done. I manage government workers and am always told you can not fire them- that is false - do your job and document and if you have cause you can fire bad workers but you must make your case.
Also if they know you are serious most poor employees improve.</p>
<p>tom, I was just going to say it, but you just did. The teacher who can move around could just leave Westfield. In fact, I have a friend who just did that. She was teaching in a public school. She shopped around for promotion and salary over the summer, when she was not working. She found a much better deal in a private school. I know, you might not think that a private school could pay more than a public, but guess what, in special ed it can be done. They were able to blend public and private funds and she is going to head the department and do some testing. Her children will be able to attend the private school tuition free on top of salary! It is a great deal for their family.</p>
<p>alwaysamom, no I was not responding to your post. I just had some thoughts about the lawyer/teacher comparisons.</p>
<p>tom, I do know that even the poorest teachers on the whole will improve if forced. I have never seen our teacher get rid of one of the dead wood instructors. I have always heard the process is too expensive for the district, but I don’t know that this is the case.</p>
<p>FF.</p>
<p>Nice to see your post again. I think we just are at opposite ends. Where you see 2 or 3 bads to the goods, I find 49 out of 50 to be good and some quite excellent. Most work very hard here and do their best. </p>
<p>We too have a very mixed school district with many different income levels. We also have a native american population that state wide has an 8% grad rate last time I checked… but people have been working really hard and the tribe success (free college) gave us a graduating class a couple years ago that included 58 tribal kids, about 40 more than usual. People here work very hard. The community supports and respects them and while money is always appreicated, respect for the profession, kind words from parents goes farther than you might think. Maybe it was just dumb luck but my two kids received an excellent education in this public school system, both made nmf… one’s in med school and the other prevet. Next week when they are home they will try and drop by the HS to visit with some of their teachers whom helped them so much…I mean I don’t do bio and chem and you can tell from my writing, english SHOULD be a second language for me… Somebody helped my kids along the way. They’d be the first to tell you. </p>
<p>I think one way we are similar is we both see how hard our spouses work and how much they care… we are blessed in many ways by that because they are too busy to see how messed up we are…</p>
<p>50,000 in NJ isnt a lot after COLA. I’d much rather stay in texas and make 45000.</p>