It’s the attitudes of people – surprisingly, many of them women – who seem incapable of placing the blame for sexual assaults squarely and completely where it belongs (fully on the harassers, for those who are having trouble grasping that concept) that lead to the attempts to explain away the assaults committed by people like Bill Cosby as, you know, the drug culture of the era, or something the women should have expected by agreeing to be alone with him, or even as something they (consciously or unconsciously) agreed to in exchange for the opportunity to bask in the reflected glory of his fame. This attitude turns my stomach.
I’ve known women who espoused this type of attitude. They seem prideful that they’re viewed as “one of the boys” and natural enough in their behavior (read non prissy) that men are comfortable swearing in front of them and saying what they truly think about particular women and anything else that crosses their minds. My husband is in construction and I’ve been on enough construction sites to know that decent men don’t respect women who disrespect other women that way, and the men who are buddy buddy with those types of women to their faces don’t have any respect for them when their backs are turned either. This type of women doesn’t respect other women, so I don’t really expect them to understand and empathize with the assaults that are being perpetrated on our young women. But I foolishly continue to wish that they would try.
One more time, harassment is not assault. Period. From someone who has experienced both, I promise you, they are not equivalent, and turning all actions into almost rape just leads moderates to dismiss the whole conversation. As repeatedly noted by many posters, no one is excusing this boy’s behavior, despite what you pretend. We just disagree on the best response to address the behavior to reduce the likelihood of it recurring. Since none of us seem to be adolescent mental health experts or inner city teachers with expertise in this area, we are all just speculating on the most effective response. No need for anyone to be sanctimonious.
You said that exactly right, roycroftmom, however, I think it doesn’t matter how much you say it. People are firmly entrenched in their positions, and if you disagree with the method then there is something wrong with YOU. As obviously you are saying this is acceptable behavior.
I think people have too many axes to grind here, many people projecting their own personal experiences. There’s obviously far more to the topic than just this short story. When you only have a few details, people fill in the blanks with what they think must have happened. It would be an interesting study about how people can get a little bit of information, and what conclusions they come to. Some focus on a girl being harassed, some focus on flailing scissors. Having Memphis as practically my second home, I focus on something else that isn’t even in the story.
I will agree with @busdriver11 on at least one thing. Many people are set in their positions. On either side. The sanctimonious stuff is on both sides of the issue.
Lots of people seem to think by saying the same thing over and over and over and over that they will convince everyone else that their interpretation is the only right interpretation. If you’ve (General you, not busdriver) already stated your opinion a half dozen times and have no new information, maybe you could let it go.
Wow, that’s my kind of girl. Put me on a jury (I’ll listen to all the facts first). But it is very unlikely anyone, anytime is going to convince me that the boy wasn’t assaulting her. Hence, he got what he deserved and I would follow it up as a parent with a lawsuit against him just to emphasize the point. I think it’s great she hurt him. Will make other jerks think before they sexually assault someone. I cannot fathom any excuse why the teacher did not act. I cannot fathom how the girl did not feel violated. Arguing about sexual assault vs abuse is not the point. If he didn’t harass/assault her he would not have been stabbed. End of story.
Agreed, however there are levels of both as you noted. Once someone physically touches you or your clothing, the behavior has moved from the harassment spectrum to assault. Perhaps the mild end of the assault spectrum, but assault nonetheless.
Surely someone who has experienced both would acknowledge the difference between someone talking at you, vs someone touching you. That is a pretty clear line. I sincerely hope that physically attempting to expose someone’s genitals meets everyone’s definition of assault.
The lynch mob mentality is out in full force. For the record, experts at Penn State and women’s rape centers have stated this should have been handled as a teachable moment for all. Agree that this thread should be closed.
@Happytimes2001 Sorry, but none of us gets to be judge, jury and executioner. Labeling this boys actions as assault is an insult to all who have been the victim of an actual assault. Despite your proclamation of “end of story”, that won’t work either. Unless a moderator decides to make it so.
So there’s another interpretation of a few details in the story. Was it a little yank, or was it fully pulling it over her head (when she was not wearing underwear)? Back in the olden days, you wouldn’t be able to expose anyone’s genitals, because we wore underwear. And I didn’t wear skirts. However nowadays, who knows?
This is actually kind of interesting seeing what details people add to the story. Though I must have something better to do. 8-|
For the record, I think both parties were in the wrong. And apparently, the prosecutors who do have all the facts (or at least more than we all do), think so too.
"Put me on a jury (I’ll listen to all the facts first). But it is very unlikely anyone, anytime is going to convince me that the boy wasn’t assaulting her. Hence, he got what he deserved "
Actually you couldn’t (shouldn’t ) be put on a jury. Because on a jury you have to swear under oath that you will deliberate in good faith and you have no preconceived judgements. You do not have anywhere close to all of the facts here yet you’ve already decided,therefore, you would be disqualified from this jury, unless of course you lie about that which is a whole other issue. (Which was already discussed in the past on another thread.
That being said: Happy Mothers Day to all you moms!!
Yes they both were in the wrong I surmised earlier also and will both learn a lesson they should have learned in kindergarten and by any kid who has a brother or sister—don’t touch each other…and that is what was determined by the investigating people. And yes it is fascinating how the story can be spun. It is a pity it couldn’t be handled in the school and probably would have except for the repeated attempted stabbings which were reported that probably tipped it.
My husband thinks the juvenile court adjudicator will roll his or her eyeballs and tell them to get the heck out and not touch each other. None of it is tolerated these days.
About my 5th grade, when the bra snapping started for those early maturer types the boys liked, the girls would take the long jump ropes during recess and run around the playground trying to rope boys they liked and tie them up. We have come a long way.
As far as I can tell from looking at statutes and work codes, this behavior qualifies legally as physical sexual harassment rather than sexual assault. If, while pulling up her skirt, the boy touched any “intimate parts” of the girl, then it would be assault in the eyes of the law.
So now I have questions about this plan. Would it work? I don’t see the point, if the kids get together by gender. The girls don’t have to tell other girls why they don’t want someone pulling their skirts; that is blindingly obvious to all the girls already. So let’s say gather all the students, girls and boys, to discuss the matter. How would this work? What evidence is there that this kind of discussion reduces harassment?
It’s not productive to say, “The boys should have learned by the time they were 6 not to pull up girls’ skirts.” They should have, but some haven’t. What do we do given that fact? How do we change their behavior and attitudes going forward?
For what it’s worth, the teacher may not have been in the room.
There’s a period of 3-5 minutes at a time between classes in most high schools when kids-- and frequently teachers as well-- are traveling. I don’t have a classroom of my own-- last year I didn’t ever have 2 consecutive periods on the same floor, much less the same room. This year I was luckier-- all my classes were on the second floor, though no two consecutive ones in the same classroom.
So, given the absence of details, I’m not sure we can assume that the teacher was present and could or should have done anything.