<p>People do STUPID things. My friend is taking cocaine with alcohol and I can’t stop her. I hope to God she doesn’t learn the wrong way.</p>
<p>" But if the kids begin to think that the colleges care, it will go a long way.
I’m not sure what you mean. Can you explain?"</p>
<p>There are some kids who are very fixated on their futures (sometimes, almost comically so - read the rest of this website), yet do dumb things at the spur of the moment. Telling a kid not to drink or drug because at some future point they might DIE doesn’t work (we have good data on that one) - the kids think they are impervious and immortal (and they have been programmed by nature that way.) But tell them that it might affect their college applications, and all of a sudden, SOME of them might connect the dots.</p>
<p>“before he gets more caught up in the drinking culture at college than he already is (I hear enough although I suspect not all).”</p>
<p>What school? (I think it is important to name names.) In my limited experience, most college students need to feel there is another, better alternative - some find it by changing peer groups; others by finding it inside.</p>
<p>I don’t think there is a single magic answer that will work for all kids. It is true that oftentimes otherwise stellar students do really stupid things.</p>
<p>I don’t mean to imply that the book is a cure-all. All I know is that it had a huge impact on my son, so it’s reasonable to think it might impact other teens as well. I think the reason it had such an impact is because it simultaneously glamorizes and condemns drug use, but not by condescending preaching - it does so by taking the reader along on a tumultuous, heart-wrenching ride that is exceedingly graphic. The reader really connects to Danny, and truly FEELS his experiences. It’s an awesome book. You know how good books are those that bring the character to life? Well this one really does that. It’s a true story. It’s far more effective than the patronizing ‘Don’t do drugs. Drugs are bad’ from people who’ve never experienced them.</p>
<p>I am not adverse to naming names; the difficulty is more the emotional telling of my “story.” But my S just went through (what I hope) is the worst 2 weeks of his life. Last week he received a deferred suspension following a disciplinary hearing for alcohol-related activities that resulted in the fire alarm going off and the need to evacuate his dorm building during the night. First offense, never been in any sort of trouble before. So now even though he can still attend classes he cannot live on campus for 2 semesters (had to move out by yesterday).</p>
<p>He is a freshman at Northeastern in Boston. Lives in an all-freshman dorm on the Engineering floor (my idea, partly so he would be around kids he would most likely form friendships with - more nerdy, less partiers. Or so I thought). He also has mild Asperger’s Syndrome and has some difficulties making friends and “reading” people and social cues and expectations. At the same time, he is very social and wants to be everybody’s friend. So going in, he was at risk of easily getting caught up in the drinking culture and acting in inappropriate ways to fit in with his peers. </p>
<p>Not that this is an excuse for his actions. He discharged a fire extinguisher, on his own, no other kids around while returning to his room after drinking with some other kids in the dorm. Didn’t realize that by being so close to the smoke detector this could set them off and therefore set off the alarm. Another kid thought he S in the hall and reported him, so when questioned he owned up. He never intended for the alarm to go off but also never gave a thought to the “safety” issues involving damaging fire safety equipment. And ultimately, I think this is what led to the deferred suspension (which by the way, was the least severe consequence he could have received under the school’s code of conduct. Behavior relating to safety of others is serious, drinking in and of itself is basically a slap on the wrist, for a first offense).</p>
<p>Up until now, he has never been what I would call a “partier” although I know that he has experimented with alcohol infrequently during his sr year of hs. During the past year more often than not, he would hang out at home with just a few friends coming over to play Xbox and so he has been pretty well monitored and parented. Alcoholism runs in my family and we do not keep any alcohol in the house because we do not even want the temptation to be there. </p>
<p>He knows the risks, he’s seen the effects in other family members. Hopefully this recent incident has really been a learning experience for him - and for his friends back in the dorm. Being removed from the dorm and the drinking culture that apparently existed there may be a blessing in disguise. And in a sense I cannot fault the school for following through on enforcement of their policies - although I do like the idea of a question on college applications. My concern now is how to keep HIM from wanting to go back to that culture; I don’t want this lesson to wear off too quickly.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You seem to have a really good perspective on this incident and seem like a really great mom who has done a wonderful job of raising her kid. It seems to me that having to move out of the dorm, for a foolish lack of judgment, should probably make a deep impression on him. Do you have any reason to think that this natural consequence won’t be enough to get him back on track?</p>
<p>“”“Have you ever used alcohol (if under age 21) or have you ever used an illicit drug?”</p>
<p>I wouldn’t be opposed to this question as long as it’s phrased in a way that makes it clear that it is neither illegal nor inappropriate for underage people to drink alcohol in family and religious settings. I had “used” alcohol at seders and so on by the time I was 10.</p>
<p>I understand your idea, mini, but what would be the consequences if the kid responded to the question with a lie? They know there would be consequences if they lied about any other question in the application.</p>
<p>I agree that there must be immediate and direct consequences especially for college kids who are no longer under the control of their parents. In my S’s case I expect the direct consequences he is now experiencing will be enough to keep him on track but there are many other factors that influence the decision-making of college students who are away from home and away from their parents’ supervision for the first time. I agree that for younger teens, parental supervision is the most important factor to control this but that is not as easy to do once they reach college age, and many still have not matured enough to be trusted to make the best decisions.</p>
<p>My S’s school has a mandatory online alcohol education course that incoming freshmen are told they must complete before school actually begins. I understand from S that most kids do not take this seriously but I also don’t know that there are any serious consequences if they don’t either. Why couldn’t failure to complete it be a block on their record, for instance and prevent them from starting classes until they complete it? Northeastern actually does this in two parts, they require the freshmen to do a second online course again towards the end of the fall semester. I think this is a good start (and something that would be easy for colleges to do) but since there are no immediate consequences, the message they are trying to convey does not come through to the students.</p>
<p>Scansmom- A very similar situation took place at my S’s school the last week of 1st semester fresman year with a boy in his residence hall. Alchohol related stupidity resulting in expulsion from the dorm. His parents found him a room in a boarding house and he had a great 2nd semester. The expulsion scared the heck out of him and the sense into him.</p>
<p>“Alchohol related stupidity resulting in expulsion from the dorm.”</p>
<p>Yep. It’s everywhere. It happens even when the consequences are well known to be severe and well publicized. A friend of mine was proctoring the Harvard secondary school program. A couple of his students – a rising Princeton freshman and a rising UVA freshman – were caught carrying alcohol in the yard. The secondary school program is dry, and the yard is dry, and their parents were summoned to come and take them home, period. Their future colleges were also notified of the infraction, although both schools (correctly, IMHO) chose not to do anything about it.</p>
<p>As a college student I can tell you some things that would have discouraged drinking while in high school if I had actually been interested. My parents knew my friends’ parents and knew where I was going and with whom. I took driver’s ed and knew the dangers of drinking and driving so I wouldn’t be drinking at parties since I drove myself home. My parents had me sign a contract about car usage that covered topics including drunk driving that included what the penalty would be and stated that I could always call for a ride home with no explanation necessary. My friends and I normally hung out in public places rather than in someone’s home since we went to a regional school and could be an hour or so from home just being in the same city. We included parents in some of our major activities even if we were driving ourselves, 18th birthday parties are the events that come to mind, when one of us planned a surprise party the parents of the person in question were invited to enjoy the celebration with us, which was usually pizza and bowling. When I had parties at my house my parents were there. Probably the biggest discouragement from doing stupid things in high school was the possibility of getting caught and losing my parents trust because who wants to have to rebuild what you have? I think reinforcing the trust issue is a really good way to make kids aware that if they don’t live up to standards then they lose something major.</p>
<p>Well the college app question wouldn’t work for internationals since the drinking age is 18 in the rest of the world. Though really, it’s 18 where I live HK, and I’ve never seen or heard of anyone getting seriously hurt by alcohol.</p>
<p>I guess we could put a few other questions on the application, too, like “Have you ever driven in excess of the posted speed limit or violated any other traffic laws?” “Have you ever lied to your girlfriend or boyfriend?” “Have you ever done an activity you didn’t particularly care for just to enhance your college application?” “Do you REALLY care about the plight of the poor in third world countries?”</p>
<p>Scansmom – Many thanks for posting the experience your son has had. While I have empathy for your son’s situation, I was pleasantly surprised to learn that Northeastern had a fairly severe consequence for his actions. I also applaud you for being realistic about the situation…and not trying to blame what happened on the school.</p>
<p>Jessetfan – “Probably the biggest discouragement from doing stupid things in high school was the possibility of getting caught and losing my parents trust because who wants to have to rebuild what you have? I think reinforcing the trust issue is a really good way to make kids aware that if they don’t live up to standards then they lose something major.” It worked for me and my parents. Unfortunately, didn’t work for my son. But, I often feel that the loss of that mutual trust has been harder on us than on him.</p>
<p>"I guess we could put a few other questions on the application, too, like “Have you ever driven in excess of the posted speed limit or violated any other traffic laws?” “Have you ever lied to your girlfriend or boyfriend?” “Have you ever done an activity you didn’t particularly care for just to enhance your college application?” “Do you REALLY care about the plight of the poor in third world countries?”</p>
<p>Only one of them is DIRECTLY relevant to the campus life the college is trying to build, and directly relevant to the OP’s question. Now I don’t expect the colleges to use a “yes” answer with an explanation as a qualifier. Only to indicate that, as in the case of an arrest (which is already on the application - so there is clear precedent), that they care.</p>
<p>(But many of them really don’t.)</p>
<p>“understand your idea, mini, but what would be the consequences if the kid responded to the question with a lie? They know there would be consequences if they lied about any other question in the application.”</p>
<p>Oh, there usually are NOT consequences for lying on other application questions. I expect some would lie and some wouldn’t; some would write reasonable explanations (there should be an “If yes, please explain”), and some wouldn’t. Guidance counselors at the high school would have another weapon at their disposal, as would parents. Probably the biggest consequence of being caught in the lie would be to the high school GCs, who would lose trust, and hence to future applicants from the same school.</p>
<p>“Though really, it’s 18 where I live HK, and I’ve never seen or heard of anyone getting seriously hurt by alcohol.”</p>
<p>I know little about HK. Nor about rates of current consequences (I know U.S. high schoolers drive MUCH more than their counterparts in Europe.) I can tell you that the serious harm from alcohol (i.e. future alcoholism, liver cancer, cirrhosis, etc.) are far HIGHER in England, France, Germany, Sweden, and Denmark, which have lower drinking ages, than they are in the U.S.</p>
<p>More parent involvment- including guiding kids to continuing their outside interests.
Example
Yesterday evening I took my junior daughter to a preseason meeting for rugby.
<a href=“it%20actually%20was%20pretty%20eye%20opening%20for%20me-%20re%20my%2016%20yr%20old%20who%20always%20has%20been%20very%20quiet.%20It%20took%20her%20years%20playing%20soccer%20before%20she%20even%20attempted%20to%20make%20a%20goal%20in%20a%20game,%20let%20alone%20score%20one-%20but%20she%20apparently%20was%20the%20main%20force%20between%20most%20of%20the%20girls%20joining%20the%20rugby%20team,%20almost%20half%20were%20her%20friends%20and%20the%20other%20half%20were%20from%20her%20soccer%20team%20;”>i</a> )*</p>
<p>But afterwards her friends wanted to go “do something together”.
This is what they did- they walked to the store and made * salad*
They enjoy doing basically the same things that they did 5 years ago as far as I can tell. ( Except for being all too aware that they will be done with high school soon)</p>
<p>Parents are a much greater influence than they realize.
I understand about impulsivity and agree, but kids also pick up on our expectations and when parents imply that kids should be more social and “party” on the weekends, rather than being happy that they are content to go see a movie with their little brother, it may push them into a situation that you wouldn’t want them to be in.</p>
<p>I feel that for some parents there is a fine line, between what they feel is acceptable and desirable social behavior and behavior that we would feel is risky and “too adult”.
When this behavior is encouraged, slowly starting in middle school or even before, it gradually gets more questionable until parents faced with the realization that they aren’t comfortable with what their kids are doing on the weekends, but they have allowed it to continue for so long, that they can’t reverse the trend without a major change for everyone.</p>
<p>I am NOT trying to say that families with kids who have substance or other issues are bad parents. I know that some kids are much more likely to push the envelope, and some areas like berurahs for example, it would be like swimming upstream to go against group behavior.
I realize that I have been fortunate to live in an area with lots of things for kids to do-and have kids that are very open to suggestions
( which actually is why we moved * into the city* when we had kids- rather than to continue to live in the suburbs where I was raised and where you had to have a car, and there was a lot of pressure to “party every weekend” )</p>
<p>But- I do see cumulative effects from parent expectations and involvement, and I don’t think it is the colleges duty to step into the parental role for young adult students.</p>
<p>“But- I do see cumulative effects from parent expectations and involvement, and I don’t think it is the colleges duty to step into the parental role for young adult students.”</p>
<p>I just expect them to operate as if they are not the premises of a very large tavern serving alcohol illegally. (and I resent it when my measley alumni contribution is used to pay off the insurance settlement year after year).</p>
<p>I don’t drink, not because of any pretense of “trust” between me and my parents (my relationship with my mom isn’t the best, and my parents hate each other even though they’re married) but because I’m terrified of what my mom would do to me if I got caught. Don’t underestimate the power of fear. It may not make for a fun, healthy, conflict-free few years, but at least you’ll have your kid under control. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>(For the record, I wouldn’t be getting trashed on weekends even if my parents were more lenient, because that’s just not the sort of person I am. They know this, but they still don’t trust me to, say, spend some time at a friend’s house after prom “in case there’s alcohol”, regardless of said friend’s strict Indian family or the fact that no one in the group has any record of “partying” in the past, or that most likely, we’d be sitting around gossiping and making nerdy jokes. And my family’s European, so it isn’t even a question of culture.)</p>
<p>I just expect them to operate as if they are not the premises of a very large tavern serving alcohol illegally. (and I resent it when my measley alumni contribution is used to pay off the insurance settlement year after year).</p>
<p>I dont have direct experiences with schools that operate that way- and can’t you specify what you want your donation to be used for?</p>